The designer on contradictions, sustainability, and why clothing must evolve to stay alive
April 23, 2025
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Photo (above): AW25 ‘montage’ shot by Robi Rodriguez courtesy of AKIKOAOKI
Ali Khan: Japanese fashion has a long history of pioneering women designers who shaped global fashion. As part of the new generation leading Japanese fashion today, how do you see yourself carrying forward this legacy? Do you feel a responsibility to redefine Japanese fashion’s voice?
Akiko Aoki: I believe that Japan has its own unique sense of beauty, values, and character. Our predecessors have continued to face and challenge their own missions without pretense. Therefore, I believe that AKIKOAOKI should also uphold our brand philosophy, and always be in dialogue with the times from a uniquely Japanese perspective and with sincerity.
AK: 日本のファッション界には、世界のファッションを形作ってきた先駆的な女性デザイナーが多くいます。現在の日本のファッションをリードする新世代の一人として、あなた自身はこの遺産をどのように継承していくつもりですか？日本のファッションを再定義する責任を感じますか？
AA: 日本には独自の美意識や価値観、そして性質があると考えています。それらを持って創造を行なってきた先人たちが最も大切にしてきたことは、自身の使命に嘘偽りなく向かい続け、挑み続けたことではないでしょうか。なので、AKIKOAOKIも、AKIKOAOKIのフィロソフィーを持って、誠実に日本独自の視点と、都度、時代と対話していくことだと思います。
AK: Do you think the Japanese fashion industry has enough female representation? How can we achieve better balance?
AA: I feel that the Japanese fashion industry is a place where women can thrive. With that said, one thing I can say is that independent fashion designers in particular are very busy, as there are many situations where it becomes difficult to balance work and our private lives. It would be nice if there was some kind of support, not necessarily a support system from a company, but some type of support for women creators who are in such an independent position.
AK: 日本のファッション業界は、女性が十分に活躍できていると思いますか？どうすればもっとバランスが取れると思われますか？
AA: 日本のファッション業界は、女性が活躍できる土壌があると感じます。1つ言えるとしたら、特にインディペンデントなファッションデザイナーは仕事とプライベートを分けきれない場面も多々ありますので、本当に忙しいです。いろんな物事のバランスをうまく調整することは大変難しいですが、企業のようなサポートとまでは言いませんが、そういった独立した立場である女性クリエイターをサポートするものがあればいいですね。
AK: How would you describe the AKIKOAOKI muse? What defines her essence?
AA: There is no specific muse, but I guess she is a mature woman who never forgets to be true to herself and isn’t afraid of new challenges.
AK: AKIKOAOKIのミューズはどのような人物ですか？彼女の本質を定義するものは何ですか？
AA: 特定のミューズは存在しませんが、繊細さと挑戦を忘れない大人の女性、でしょうか。
AK: Could you walk us through your latest Fall/Winter 2025 collection—the concept, key pieces, and any new creative directions you explored this season?
AA: The keyword is ‘montage.'
First of all, as a premise, the brand takes “contradictions” and unexpected “bugs” that appear from close observation of reality, which we usually take for granted, as “hints of possibilities,” and expresses them as distortions of reality through the clothes.This season, the designer Aoki's natural point of view has been further applied to the brand's core concept. It is a direct realism of “the transformation of an outfit that appears through time and situations based on a woman's own reality”. Elements such as lingerie, for example, express an invisible realm where social norms and personal memories intersect, without contradicting masculine scintillation.
The items present two different approaches to tailoring, for example. On the one hand, the tops are reconstructed into an infinitely flat silhouette, with only the essential details extracted from the suit. On the other hand, there is the jacket coat, in which pattern techniques are used to cut out the drape of the fabric, which is drawn by the natural roundness of the back, as it changes over time to nestle against the wearer's body. In the dress category, there is a draping dress that spatially captures the female body and creates a three-dimensional flow that responds to the body's movements using pattern-making techniques alone, without the use of gathers.
AK: 最新の2025年秋冬コレクションについて、コンセプト、キーアイテム、そして今シーズンの新しいクリエイティブの方向性について教えてください。
AA: キーワードは‘ montage ’
まず前提として、普段、私たちが「当たり前」と捉えている現実をつぶさに観察して現れる「矛盾」や予期せぬ「バグ」を“可能性を示唆するもの”として捉え、それらを洋服を通してリアリティの歪曲 として表現しています。そういったブランドの基幹となる考え方に、今季は、より一層、デザイナーである青木のナチュラルな視点が照射されていきました。 それは、「ひとりの女性において自身のリアリティに基づいた状況や時間を通して現れる装いの変容」という直裁的なリアリズムです。例えば、ランジェリーのような要素は、男性的な スーチングと反目しないかたちで、社会規範と個人の記憶が交錯する不可視の領域を表現しています。
アイテムでは、例えばテーラリングでは、二つの異なるアプローチを提示します。スーツという形式から本質的なディテールだけを抽出し、限りなくフラッ トなボディに再構築されたトップス。 もう一方には、時を経て着用者の体に寄り添うように変化していく様を、背中の自然な丸みが描き出す布地のドレープをパターンテク ニックで切り取ったジャケットコートがあります。また、ドレスでは、女性の身体性を空間的に捉え、ギャザーを用いずパターンメイキングの技術のみで、身体の動きに呼応する立 体的な流れを構築したドレーピングドレスがあります。
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Photo (above): AW25 ‘montage’ shot by Robi Rodriguez courtesy of AKIKOAOKI
Ali Khan: Japanese fashion has a long history of pioneering women designers who shaped global fashion. As part of the new generation leading Japanese fashion today, how do you see yourself carrying forward this legacy? Do you feel a responsibility to redefine Japanese fashion’s voice?
Akiko Aoki: I believe that Japan has its own unique sense of beauty, values, and character. Our predecessors have continued to face and challenge their own missions without pretense. Therefore, I believe that AKIKOAOKI should also uphold our brand philosophy, and always be in dialogue with the times from a uniquely Japanese perspective and with sincerity.
AK: 日本のファッション界には、世界のファッションを形作ってきた先駆的な女性デザイナーが多くいます。現在の日本のファッションをリードする新世代の一人として、あなた自身はこの遺産をどのように継承していくつもりですか？日本のファッションを再定義する責任を感じますか？
AA: 日本には独自の美意識や価値観、そして性質があると考えています。それらを持って創造を行なってきた先人たちが最も大切にしてきたことは、自身の使命に嘘偽りなく向かい続け、挑み続けたことではないでしょうか。なので、AKIKOAOKIも、AKIKOAOKIのフィロソフィーを持って、誠実に日本独自の視点と、都度、時代と対話していくことだと思います。
AK: Do you think the Japanese fashion industry has enough female representation? How can we achieve better balance?
AA: I feel that the Japanese fashion industry is a place where women can thrive. With that said, one thing I can say is that independent fashion designers in particular are very busy, as there are many situations where it becomes difficult to balance work and our private lives. It would be nice if there was some kind of support, not necessarily a support system from a company, but some type of support for women creators who are in such an independent position.
AK: 日本のファッション業界は、女性が十分に活躍できていると思いますか？どうすればもっとバランスが取れると思われますか？
AA: 日本のファッション業界は、女性が活躍できる土壌があると感じます。1つ言えるとしたら、特にインディペンデントなファッションデザイナーは仕事とプライベートを分けきれない場面も多々ありますので、本当に忙しいです。いろんな物事のバランスをうまく調整することは大変難しいですが、企業のようなサポートとまでは言いませんが、そういった独立した立場である女性クリエイターをサポートするものがあればいいですね。
AK: How would you describe the AKIKOAOKI muse? What defines her essence?
AA: There is no specific muse, but I guess she is a mature woman who never forgets to be true to herself and isn’t afraid of new challenges.
AK: AKIKOAOKIのミューズはどのような人物ですか？彼女の本質を定義するものは何ですか？
AA: 特定のミューズは存在しませんが、繊細さと挑戦を忘れない大人の女性、でしょうか。
AK: Could you walk us through your latest Fall/Winter 2025 collection—the concept, key pieces, and any new creative directions you explored this season?
AA: The keyword is ‘montage.'
First of all, as a premise, the brand takes “contradictions” and unexpected “bugs” that appear from close observation of reality, which we usually take for granted, as “hints of possibilities,” and expresses them as distortions of reality through the clothes.This season, the designer Aoki's natural point of view has been further applied to the brand's core concept. It is a direct realism of “the transformation of an outfit that appears through time and situations based on a woman's own reality”. Elements such as lingerie, for example, express an invisible realm where social norms and personal memories intersect, without contradicting masculine scintillation.
The items present two different approaches to tailoring, for example. On the one hand, the tops are reconstructed into an infinitely flat silhouette, with only the essential details extracted from the suit. On the other hand, there is the jacket coat, in which pattern techniques are used to cut out the drape of the fabric, which is drawn by the natural roundness of the back, as it changes over time to nestle against the wearer's body. In the dress category, there is a draping dress that spatially captures the female body and creates a three-dimensional flow that responds to the body's movements using pattern-making techniques alone, without the use of gathers.
AK: 最新の2025年秋冬コレクションについて、コンセプト、キーアイテム、そして今シーズンの新しいクリエイティブの方向性について教えてください。
AA: キーワードは‘ montage ’
まず前提として、普段、私たちが「当たり前」と捉えている現実をつぶさに観察して現れる「矛盾」や予期せぬ「バグ」を“可能性を示唆するもの”として捉え、それらを洋服を通してリアリティの歪曲 として表現しています。そういったブランドの基幹となる考え方に、今季は、より一層、デザイナーである青木のナチュラルな視点が照射されていきました。 それは、「ひとりの女性において自身のリアリティに基づいた状況や時間を通して現れる装いの変容」という直裁的なリアリズムです。例えば、ランジェリーのような要素は、男性的な スーチングと反目しないかたちで、社会規範と個人の記憶が交錯する不可視の領域を表現しています。
アイテムでは、例えばテーラリングでは、二つの異なるアプローチを提示します。スーツという形式から本質的なディテールだけを抽出し、限りなくフラッ トなボディに再構築されたトップス。 もう一方には、時を経て着用者の体に寄り添うように変化していく様を、背中の自然な丸みが描き出す布地のドレープをパターンテク ニックで切り取ったジャケットコートがあります。また、ドレスでは、女性の身体性を空間的に捉え、ギャザーを用いずパターンメイキングの技術のみで、身体の動きに呼応する立 体的な流れを構築したドレーピングドレスがあります。
AK: If someone were to start building an Akiko Aoki wardrobe, what is the one indispensable item you’d recommend first?
AA: For 25FW, we recommend a shirt with three-dimensional blue stripes, a top featuring lingerie-like lace, and a jacket coat.
AK: もし誰かがAKIKOAOKIのワードローブを作り始めるとしたら、まず最初におすすめしたい必須アイテムは何ですか？
AA: 25FWで言えば、立体的なブルーストライプのシャツと、ランジェリー的なレース使いが特徴のトップス、またジャケットコートを勧めます。
AK: As Japanese fashion gains worldwide popularity, how do you balance appealing to global audiences while staying true to your design roots?
AA: To believe in yourself, not be afraid of change, and to have fun.
AK: 日本のファッションが世界的に注目を集める中、自身のデザインのルーツに忠実でありながら、グローバルな観客にアピールするバランスをどのようにとっていますか？
AA: 自分自身を強く信じながら、変化することを恐れず楽しむこと。
AK: Menswear has become a dynamic force in fashion, with womenswear often borrowing from its tailoring and streetwear influences. How does menswear inspire your design perspective?
AA: I am constantly inspired by men’s tailoring.
AK: メンズウェアはファッション界でもダイナミックな力を持つようになり、レディースウェアでもそのテーラリングやストリートウェアからインスパイアされているデザインが多くあります。メンズウェアは、あなた自身はデザインする上でメンズウェアからインスピレーションを受けることはありますか？
AA: メンズのテーラードは多くのインスピレーションを私に与えます。
AK: Do you plan to venture into menswear in the future?
AA: Never say never.
AK: 将来的にメンズウェアを手がける予定は？
AA: 可能性はいつでもゼロでは無い。
AK: Many designers struggle to reconcile artistic vision with commercial success. As both chief designer and business leader, how do you navigate this challenge?
AA: I believe that we should value both artistic vision and commercial success, as both require creativity, just in different channels.
AK: 多くのデザイナーが、芸術的なビジョンと商業的な成功を両立させるのに苦労しています。チーフデザイナーとして、またビジネスリーダーとして、あなたはこの課題をどのように乗り越えていますか？
AA: 芸術的なビジョンも、商業的な成功も、チャンネルが違うだけでどちらもクリエイティブが必要ですので、挑むべきものだと信じています。
AK: Having worked in fashion for years, how have your views on the industry changed since you started?
AA: After much experience, I can say that the way I see the industry has certainly changed.
AK: 長年ファッション業界で働いてきて、始めた頃と、この業界に対する見方はどのように変わりましたか？
AA: 多くの経験を経て、この業界の見え方は確かに変わったと言えます。
AK: What do you think the fashion industry needs to improve most urgently?
AA: It is difficult, but show the ATTITUDE that you place the highest value on creativity.
AK: ファッション業界が緊急に取り組むべき課題は何だと思いますか？
AA: 難しいことではあるが、クリエイティブに最も価値を高く置いているattitudeを見せること。
AK: Can fashion ever be truly sustainable—more than just a trend? How does sustainability
factor into your brand’s ethos?
AA: Fashion is an era, a trend. But for AKIKOAOKI, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything negative. Is there any other culture that corresponds to each era in such a way? Fashion is a living organism. If sustainability means “continuous,” then fashion will certainly continue to change, evolve, and live on.
AK: ファッションは単なるトレンドではなく、本当に持続可能なものになり得るのでしょうか？サステイナビリティはAKIKOAOKIの理念とどのように結びついていますか？
AA: ファッションは時代であり、流行です。しかしそれはAKIKOAOKIにとって、決してネガティブな意味では無い。それぞれの時代とこのように呼応し合う文化が他にあるだろうか。ファッションはまさに生物そのものである。サステイナビリティを“持続可能”と捉えるならば、まさにファッションは変化し続けながら、進化し、生き続けるだろう。
AA: For 25FW, we recommend a shirt with three-dimensional blue stripes, a top featuring lingerie-like lace, and a jacket coat.
AK: もし誰かがAKIKOAOKIのワードローブを作り始めるとしたら、まず最初におすすめしたい必須アイテムは何ですか？
AA: 25FWで言えば、立体的なブルーストライプのシャツと、ランジェリー的なレース使いが特徴のトップス、またジャケットコートを勧めます。
AK: As Japanese fashion gains worldwide popularity, how do you balance appealing to global audiences while staying true to your design roots?
AA: To believe in yourself, not be afraid of change, and to have fun.
AK: 日本のファッションが世界的に注目を集める中、自身のデザインのルーツに忠実でありながら、グローバルな観客にアピールするバランスをどのようにとっていますか？
AA: 自分自身を強く信じながら、変化することを恐れず楽しむこと。
AK: Menswear has become a dynamic force in fashion, with womenswear often borrowing from its tailoring and streetwear influences. How does menswear inspire your design perspective?
AA: I am constantly inspired by men’s tailoring.
AK: メンズウェアはファッション界でもダイナミックな力を持つようになり、レディースウェアでもそのテーラリングやストリートウェアからインスパイアされているデザインが多くあります。メンズウェアは、あなた自身はデザインする上でメンズウェアからインスピレーションを受けることはありますか？
AA: メンズのテーラードは多くのインスピレーションを私に与えます。
AK: Do you plan to venture into menswear in the future?
AA: Never say never.
AK: 将来的にメンズウェアを手がける予定は？
AA: 可能性はいつでもゼロでは無い。
AK: Many designers struggle to reconcile artistic vision with commercial success. As both chief designer and business leader, how do you navigate this challenge?
AA: I believe that we should value both artistic vision and commercial success, as both require creativity, just in different channels.
AK: 多くのデザイナーが、芸術的なビジョンと商業的な成功を両立させるのに苦労しています。チーフデザイナーとして、またビジネスリーダーとして、あなたはこの課題をどのように乗り越えていますか？
AA: 芸術的なビジョンも、商業的な成功も、チャンネルが違うだけでどちらもクリエイティブが必要ですので、挑むべきものだと信じています。
AK: Having worked in fashion for years, how have your views on the industry changed since you started?
AA: After much experience, I can say that the way I see the industry has certainly changed.
AK: 長年ファッション業界で働いてきて、始めた頃と、この業界に対する見方はどのように変わりましたか？
AA: 多くの経験を経て、この業界の見え方は確かに変わったと言えます。
AK: What do you think the fashion industry needs to improve most urgently?
AA: It is difficult, but show the ATTITUDE that you place the highest value on creativity.
AK: ファッション業界が緊急に取り組むべき課題は何だと思いますか？
AA: 難しいことではあるが、クリエイティブに最も価値を高く置いているattitudeを見せること。
AK: Can fashion ever be truly sustainable—more than just a trend? How does sustainability
factor into your brand’s ethos?
AA: Fashion is an era, a trend. But for AKIKOAOKI, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything negative. Is there any other culture that corresponds to each era in such a way? Fashion is a living organism. If sustainability means “continuous,” then fashion will certainly continue to change, evolve, and live on.
AK: ファッションは単なるトレンドではなく、本当に持続可能なものになり得るのでしょうか？サステイナビリティはAKIKOAOKIの理念とどのように結びついていますか？
AA: ファッションは時代であり、流行です。しかしそれはAKIKOAOKIにとって、決してネガティブな意味では無い。それぞれの時代とこのように呼応し合う文化が他にあるだろうか。ファッションはまさに生物そのものである。サステイナビリティを“持続可能”と捉えるならば、まさにファッションは変化し続けながら、進化し、生き続けるだろう。
“Fashion is a living organism. If sustainability means ‘continuous,’ then fashion will certainly continue to change, evolve, and live on.”
AK: What inspires you most as a designer—art, people, places, or experiences? Could you share a few pivotal influences on your work?
AA: “Reality” is what inspires me most.
AK: デザイナーとして最もインスピレーションを受けるものは何ですか？芸術？人？場所？経験？あなたのデザインに影響を与えているものをいくつか教えてください。
AA: 私に最も影響を与えるインスピレーションは「reality」です。
AK: Which city fuels your creativity the most, both personally and professionally?
AA: Tokyo, London
AK: 個人的にも仕事上でも、あなたの創造性を最も刺激する都市はどこですか？
AA: 東京、ロンドン
AK: Where’s your favorite place in Tokyo to unwind and recharge?
AA: A big park in Tokyo in the morning.
AK: 東京でリラックスして充電できるお気に入りの場所はどこですか？
AA: 朝の都内にある大きな公園
AK: What’s your key advice for young designers launching their brands? Is there a critical skill you wish you’d mastered earlier?
AA: Be concious and aware of the trends of the times. Believe in your strengths and what you want to do, and when you find one, pursue and improve on it.
AK: ブランドを立ち上げる若いデザイナーへのアドバイスは？もっと早くマスターしておけばよかったと思うスキルなどはありますか？
AA: 時代の動向に、耳を澄ませて。自分の長所とやりたいことを信じて、1つ見つけたら研ぎ澄ますこと。
AA: “Reality” is what inspires me most.
AK: デザイナーとして最もインスピレーションを受けるものは何ですか？芸術？人？場所？経験？あなたのデザインに影響を与えているものをいくつか教えてください。
AA: 私に最も影響を与えるインスピレーションは「reality」です。
AK: Which city fuels your creativity the most, both personally and professionally?
AA: Tokyo, London
AK: 個人的にも仕事上でも、あなたの創造性を最も刺激する都市はどこですか？
AA: 東京、ロンドン
AK: Where’s your favorite place in Tokyo to unwind and recharge?
AA: A big park in Tokyo in the morning.
AK: 東京でリラックスして充電できるお気に入りの場所はどこですか？
AA: 朝の都内にある大きな公園
AK: What’s your key advice for young designers launching their brands? Is there a critical skill you wish you’d mastered earlier?
AA: Be concious and aware of the trends of the times. Believe in your strengths and what you want to do, and when you find one, pursue and improve on it.
AK: ブランドを立ち上げる若いデザイナーへのアドバイスは？もっと早くマスターしておけばよかったと思うスキルなどはありますか？
AA: 時代の動向に、耳を澄ませて。自分の長所とやりたいことを信じて、1つ見つけたら研ぎ澄ますこと。
KIKYO’s Infinite Charm
Sandra, accessory designer of the coquettishly whimsical Singaporean brand KIKYO, chats with Le Fool about comfort jewellery, SHUSHU/TONG, old magazines, coloured tights, the iconic Blair Waldorf, and seeing friends and family as the ultimate influencers.
January 17, 2025
Interviewed by Miu Xia | Editor
Photo (above): Summer Lace shoe charm set Courtesy of KIKYO.
Interviewed by Miu Xia | Editor
Photo (above): Summer Lace shoe charm set Courtesy of KIKYO.
Miu: I first followed you after falling in love with your Summer Lace shoe charm set, a combination of dainty lace, crystal beads and perfectly layered metallic accents. What is your favorite medium to work with, and what are some textures, materials, or ideas you would like to experiment with next?
Sandra: Ah, thank you so much! I am so glad you love the set, you literally saw the lace vision! ~ ❤
After trying out resin, crochet and clay, I still choose beads as my favourite medium (perhaps it’s a bias), but I love mixing beads with fabric, such as ruffles, chiffons, and ribbons! (coquette still dominates haha). I find that fabric enhances the beauty and sparkle of the beads, it makes a creation look more complete as a piece. In line with this, it’s probably because I always see in a way if my pieces are wearable with something that my customers already have. For example: shoes > fabric, clothes > fabric, bag > fabric or leather — — — which is what I would like to explore next year… But for now, this is a sneak peek to my SS ’25.
KIKYO’s SS25 inspiration
I mostly find inspos from the runways instead of objects, I analyse the structure of the clothes and translate it into jewellery pieces.
M: I love the quote you used for the product description of the Jellyfish Ribbon keychain: “If I do get reborn, then I, I want to just rock gently on the ocean waves. I want to be a jellyfish. 私はクラゲになりたい」 (Watashi wa Kurage ni Naritai)” from Princess Jellyfish, episode 5. From your use of delicate chiffon flowers to freshwater pearls, jellyfish to black swan motifs, nature is such a big theme in your collections. What do you envision as the lifestyle of those who wear KIKYO, and what might they be similarly inspired by?
S: I am a huge fan of slice of life anime — just about everyday life, and just like the Jellyfish quote, it’s more of a enjoy your present, while trying your best — stay grateful and treasure what you have. Their lifestyle could be anything: indoor, outdoor, small or large group of friends, party no party, makeup no makeup, introvert or extrovert. I’d love them to be content with their lives :) If I were to give an inspiration to this lifestyle, it would be this particular [playlist] Oldies + Rain by Nemo’s Dreamscapes. Such an odd reference, but it gives you comfort and calm.
M: Personally, adding charms and trinkets in my daily look welcomes a sense of nostalgia, especially for the Y2K days when walking around with a cluster of charms hanging off of digital cameras, mechanical pencil cases, and pink razor flip phones was the norm. What is your favorite early memory of accessorizing? What are some of your favorite ways you’ve seen your pieces styled?
S: 101% agree with you! We have sooo many trinket options! Rather than jewellery, my very first accessory that I remember choosing for myself is a pair of cyan coloured tights, believe it or not. Coloured tights were all the rage during my late teenage years — who else to blame if not because of the Gossip Girl rage, and I, too, would like to join the trend.
M: Personally, adding charms and trinkets in my daily look welcomes a sense of nostalgia, especially for the Y2K days when walking around with a cluster of charms hanging off of digital cameras, mechanical pencil cases, and pink razor flip phones was the norm. What is your favorite early memory of accessorizing? What are some of your favorite ways you’ve seen your pieces styled?
S: 101% agree with you! We have sooo many trinket options! Rather than jewellery, my very first accessory that I remember choosing for myself is a pair of cyan coloured tights, believe it or not. Coloured tights were all the rage during my late teenage years — who else to blame if not because of the Gossip Girl rage, and I, too, would like to join the trend.
S: 101% agree with you! We have sooo many trinket options! Rather than jewellery, my very first accessory that I remember choosing for myself is a pair of cyan coloured tights, believe it or not. Coloured tights were all the rage during my late teenage years — who else to blame if not because of the Gossip Girl rage, and I, too, would like to join the trend.
“I came across a page of ‘How to Wear your Coloured Tights like Blair Waldorf’ along the line. I immediately wrote down the address to get the tights (that was how we were exposed to fashion brands back then, through magazines!)”
LEFT: Much like old CÉLINE, old Gossip Girl (2007) reigns supreme (collage by KIKYO) RIGHT: Zendaya in colored tights in 2020 Vogue Australia March 2020/Daniel Jackson (collage by author)
Like all the teen-lit girls back then, as I flipped through the bi-weekly fashion magazine I subscribed to, I came across a page of “How to Wear your Coloured Tights like Blair Waldorf” along the line. I immediately wrote down the address to get the tights (that was how we were exposed to fashion brands back then, through magazines!) and that weekend, off I went to the popular mall in town. After searching for a bit, I fixated on two colours: cyan and fuchsia. Guess what, I bought both colours (insert crying emoji). I went home and paired it with a white dress, twirled in front of the mirror and my mum definitely saw a question mark on my face. In my head: why did I choose this colour? and why the fuchsia? It’s so hard to pull off!! (insert crying emoji again) …I should have gotten the red one since it’s coming back this year.
So, did I wear it out in the end? No. Hahaha. I donated both. Although it was a failure, it’s how I found a spark of fun in styling, I fell in love with fashion first, then accessories second — and that’s how I want all of my pieces to be something that is a go-to for my customers. I want them to feel comfortable wearing it, without thinking whether it’ll match their outfit that day, because my pieces are so subtle it complements the fit, or as my motto says: minimalist but with a twist. This leads to a moment where my lovely customer, Cindy (hi if you’re reading this ^_^) styles three KIKYO pieces, to a harmonious, if not, a meant to be, ensemble of styling — she added the ribbon charm as a pendant on her necklace, instead of on a shoe! Pururun-purun, she literally created a versatility magic ☆.｡.:*⭑.ᐟ
Like all the teen-lit girls back then, as I flipped through the bi-weekly fashion magazine I subscribed to, I came across a page of “How to Wear your Coloured Tights like Blair Waldorf” along the line. I immediately wrote down the address to get the tights (that was how we were exposed to fashion brands back then, through magazines!) and that weekend, off I went to the popular mall in town. After searching for a bit, I fixated on two colours: cyan and fuchsia. Guess what, I bought both colours (insert crying emoji). I went home and paired it with a white dress, twirled in front of the mirror and my mum definitely saw a question mark on my face. In my head: why did I choose this colour? and why the fuchsia? It’s so hard to pull off!! (insert crying emoji again) …I should have gotten the red one since it’s coming back this year.
So, did I wear it out in the end? No. Hahaha. I donated both. Although it was a failure, it’s how I found a spark of fun in styling, I fell in love with fashion first, then accessories second — and that’s how I want all of my pieces to be something that is a go-to for my customers. I want them to feel comfortable wearing it, without thinking whether it’ll match their outfit that day, because my pieces are so subtle it complements the fit, or as my motto says: minimalist but with a twist. This leads to a moment where my lovely customer, Cindy (hi if you’re reading this ^_^) styles three KIKYO pieces, to a harmonious, if not, a meant to be, ensemble of styling — she added the ribbon charm as a pendant on her necklace, instead of on a shoe! Pururun-purun, she literally created a versatility magic ☆.｡.:*⭑.ᐟ
M: KIKYO only uses high quality materials and slow, handcrafted methods. Is there a designer you would like to collaborate with that you feel shares the same values, or an artist you feel you would work well with?
S: Recently, like all the coquette girlies are fanning on, it would be an absolute honour to work with SHUSHU/TONG, Cecilie Bahnsen or Susan Fang. The colour choices, textures, shapes and draping — it’s all so beautiful, like looking at swans — elegant and serene, but there is a hint of excitement that gives you butterflies in your stomach. Rather than focusing on the outside, I imagine a collaboration with my own KIKYO lovers, their constant support is what makes KIKYO what it is today. The fact that they own KIKYO pieces, they already share the same values as me. I also find that it would be more personal, approachable and meaningful. In terms of reach and exposure, they are already an influencer in their circle of friends, just like how we recommend the best ice coffee to our family and friends — that, I value that the most ❤
Interview with
Nana Mandl
& Herbert De Colle
Nana Mandl (b. 1991) and Herbert De Colle (b. 1978) are artists based in Vienna. Nana Mandl combines digital and analog worlds through collages, embroidery and textile manipulation, offering a tactile contrast to fast-paced digital imagery. Herbert De Colle references countercultural movements flattened by pop culture into labor-intensive public installations with renewed vigor. We visited their respective studios during Vienna Art Week and continued the conversation over email.
Related issues, portrait, Nana Mandl Portrait, Herbert De Colle
& Herbert De Colle
Nana Mandl (b. 1991) and Herbert De Colle (b. 1978) are artists based in Vienna. Nana Mandl combines digital and analog worlds through collages, embroidery and textile manipulation, offering a tactile contrast to fast-paced digital imagery. Herbert De Colle references countercultural movements flattened by pop culture into labor-intensive public installations with renewed vigor. We visited their respective studios during Vienna Art Week and continued the conversation over email.
March 2, 2025
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Ali Khan: We are increasingly having to navigate between the digital and real world, creating tension and new challenges for artists. How does it inform your creative process?
Nana Mandl: Right now, I’m really enjoying this balancing act. Since much of my work relies on meticulous analog techniques, I feel like I’ve found a good equilibrium between these two worlds. And the process of translating one into the other has been a major part of my creative work.
Herbert De Colle: Analog plays an important role in my work. When I think of my work “EMOTION” for the Art Box in the MuseumsQuartier in Vienna, for example. It is about handmade papier-mâché faces modeled on Harvey Ball's smileys. Conceived in 1963 in analog form, later distributed digitally and now brought back to analog form by me.
In my work “LOVE, PEACE, FOREVER” – which consists of cut posters and prints – the subjects I designed are also crafted in analog form in a very time-consuming, repetitive gesture.
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Ali Khan: We are increasingly having to navigate between the digital and real world, creating tension and new challenges for artists. How does it inform your creative process?
Nana Mandl: Right now, I’m really enjoying this balancing act. Since much of my work relies on meticulous analog techniques, I feel like I’ve found a good equilibrium between these two worlds. And the process of translating one into the other has been a major part of my creative work.
Herbert De Colle: Analog plays an important role in my work. When I think of my work “EMOTION” for the Art Box in the MuseumsQuartier in Vienna, for example. It is about handmade papier-mâché faces modeled on Harvey Ball's smileys. Conceived in 1963 in analog form, later distributed digitally and now brought back to analog form by me.
In my work “LOVE, PEACE, FOREVER” – which consists of cut posters and prints – the subjects I designed are also crafted in analog form in a very time-consuming, repetitive gesture.
Photo: ©Simon Veres
AK: Vienna has a long history of contributions to the art world. How
does the city figure into your work? How does it influence your process?
NM: To be honest, I wouldn’t call it the most inspiring city for me, but definitely the most comfortable. After living in various other cities, I embraced settling in Austria—but I always need to leave for a while to truly appreciate the privilege of living here.
HDC: Vienna is often described as a hub between East and West and this is indeed reflected in the art scene. The connection to our eastern neighbors has a long tradition, and the common German-speaking region also plays a key role.
In recent years, I have repeatedly worked with art in public space – the cut posters from the studio mentioned above are returned to their original purpose here. This is how the several hundred-meter-long poster installation “LOVE” was created at Vienna Central Station – the last thing you see when you leave Vienna, or the first thing you see when you arrive.
NM: To be honest, I wouldn’t call it the most inspiring city for me, but definitely the most comfortable. After living in various other cities, I embraced settling in Austria—but I always need to leave for a while to truly appreciate the privilege of living here.
HDC: Vienna is often described as a hub between East and West and this is indeed reflected in the art scene. The connection to our eastern neighbors has a long tradition, and the common German-speaking region also plays a key role.
In recent years, I have repeatedly worked with art in public space – the cut posters from the studio mentioned above are returned to their original purpose here. This is how the several hundred-meter-long poster installation “LOVE” was created at Vienna Central Station – the last thing you see when you leave Vienna, or the first thing you see when you arrive.
“Berlin has always been an option, but the conditions for the independent scene there are getting tougher. I hope we will be spared that in Vienna for a while longer.” - Herbert De Colle
AK: Would
you move to another, bigger art capital in the future or is Vienna too integral
to your work?
NM: Moving a co-parenting family to another place is a logistical challenge, but recently I do feel the pull to live in another city. Even after all these years (and all the changes) Berlin still holds a special place in my heart. But I can also imagine spending some time somewhere completely new, like Paris or LA. But for now, residencies and short-term travels will have to suffice.
HDC: As a city itself, Vienna doesn't play a major role in my work, but the economic realities are comparatively pleasant for artists.
Berlin has always been an option, but the conditions for the independent scene there are getting tougher. I hope we will be spared that in Vienna for a while longer.
AK: There is a lot unfolding geo-politically in Europe and the world at large – what do you think is the artist’s role in today’s society? How do you see yourself playing that role?
NM: That’s a difficult question… I do see my role as an artist as one of engagement with the world around me. At the same time, I recognize the challenge of fully grasping large-scale events while being immersed in one’s private life—something I have often explored in my work.
Still, I wouldn’t say that art has a prescribed role it must fulfil. Its beauty lies in the freedom to choose which topics to engage with, no matter how banal they may seem.
HDC: These are difficult times! The shift to the right in Europe and the USA is deeply worrying. It's only an hour's drive from Vienna to Bratislava where you can see what happens when right-wing politicians declare war on culture. As artists, we must not become quieter in expressing our opinions. I think we have to show presence. Actually, when I put up “LOVE” posters in the city, it's also meant as a call!
“I do see my role as
an artist as one of engagement with the world around me. At the same time, I
recognize the challenge of fully grasping large-scale events while being
immersed in one’s private life—something I have often explored in my work.” - Nana Mandl
NM: My work has always engaged with the complexities of what I call a globalized patchwork society. I don’t see my role as delivering a message but rather as making topics tangible—perhaps posing questions and, most importantly, encouraging viewers to discover their own narratives within the work.
HDC: Yes, as stated above, when I put up posters with simple terms like LOVE, it's meant as a message. I use terms that, among other things, refer to the 1960s, catchwords of past utopias, adopted by the mainstream countless times. In my works these repeating or dissolving terms form an analog, deliberately nostalgic counterpoint to the digital communication culture.
AK: As with fashion and other creative fields, the artworld has been criticized of green-washing and flouting sustainability concerns. Where do you stand on this debate? Can a truly sustainable practice develop under growth driven models?
NM: As long as we live in a capitalist society, everything—including sustainability, gender equality, and human rights—will be leveraged for profit. Capital generation remains the ultimate measure of success, so even when criticism arises, it rarely shifts the balance of power.
I do question our growth-driven economy, but I don’t see it as the sole obstacle to sustainability. As much as I wish change could come from the top down, I believe it must begin on a personal level, by asking ourselves what kind of world we want to live in and whether our actions align with our values.
HDC: I find it very exciting how much this topic has become established in the art scene. At the moment, I'm unsure whether sustainability will remain an important theme in the arts.
Unfortunately, it generally looks as if profit and national interests are once again coming to the fore. On the other hand, it is only a matter of time before the urgency is understood that something has to change.
“I use terms that, among other things, refer to the 1960s, catchwords of past utopias, adopted by the mainstream countless times. In my works these repeating or dissolving terms form an analog, deliberately nostalgic counterpoint to the digital communication culture.” - Herbert De Colle
NM: I believe it really simplifies our lives! Just yesterday, I submitted a last-minute application and don't think I would have managed without the help of AI. I also used AI to rephrase a lot of parts of this interview.
However, I am not sure if we are discussing all the risks and issues that come up for me enough.
HDC: It is generally difficult to predict where the journey with AI will take us.
It will depend on how it is used – there are countless ways to apply it positively. But when I think of the algorithms in social media, which are already incomprehensible, it will certainly be a new challenge for all of us. And if the most important representatives of the tech industry are now rallying behind Trump, it seems like a gloomy announcement.
AK: What and who has been the biggest influence on you? And how do these influences find their way into your work?
NM: I believe the work of other artists has likely been the biggest influence on me. But also architecture, design, fashion, and even random images I come across on social media play a role. I tend to collect everything that initially catches my eye, and in a later stage of the process, I filter through it to decide what resonates and what I want to incorporate into my work.
HDC: The most important reference points for my work in recent years are codes and symbols, certain catchwords, images and poses from subcultures and countercultures. These are by no means biographical but circulate freely available in the media and have long since entered the mainstream. The works can be read as time machines, but they do not take us back to a point in history; instead, they create a suspended state in which different levels of time overlap in terms of style and content.
NM: Lately, I’ve been diving into some incredible books! Two that had me so hooked I stayed up for hours, lost in their stories, are Und alle so still by Mareike Fallwickl and All Fours by Miranda July—both authors I deeply admire.
HDC: ---- I would prefer to skip this question, if possible!
AK: Was there an instrumental event that defined you as the artist you are today? Was it one major event or a long, slow process?
NM: Ever since I was little, my parents told me I would become an artist—so I suppose I never really had a choice. Hahaha.
But in all seriousness, there was never a Plan B. From a very young age, I was certain that this was the path I wanted to follow.
HDC: It is more of a process that is constantly evolving. I usually work in larger series or blocks of work, so ideally one work leads to the next.
AK: What is next for you?
NM: Going international!
HDC: There will be a presentation of my new publication “LOVE” in the next few weeks. This summer I have been invited to a biennial that deals with the topic of water in rural areas.
AK: What is the absolute must one do or visit if they are in Vienna next time?
NM: If you come before the end of February 2025: go and see my solo show at STRABAG Kunstforum ;)
HDC: Look at contemporary art not only in the institutions and established galleries but also in the numerous off-spaces all over the city! There are 91 exhibition spaces listed on the website of the Independent Space Index (www.independentspaceindex.at).
And there is a lot to discover on the way – nice bars, clubs and stores in less touristy districts :-)
Hideaki Shikama:
World of Discordance
The cult Japanese brand Children of the Discordance seeks to unify streetwear as high fashion continues to move away from the aesthetic
September 13, 2024
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Photo (above): Courtesy of Hideaki Shikama.
PARIS—It’s menswear fashion week and amongst the buzz of countless fashion events (not to mention the Euro cup and the pre-Olympics street parties) a poster on the wall catches our attention. Children of the Discordance, the much sought after Japanese brand, is holding a showroom for their spring/summer 2025 menswear collection.
Established in 2011 with a strong connection to the underground music scene of Tokyo, Children of the Discordance is somewhat of an enigma. Having been around long enough to be an established player on the Tokyo fashion scene, yet still not part of the mainstream fashion language.
Unlike a lot of young designers out of Japan following the likes of the great Rei Kawakubo and Yohji Yamamoto, Hideaki Shikama has walked to the beat of his own drum, finding his cues instead in the codes of youth street culture that have been developed by the likes of Jun Takahashi, Nigo, and Hiroshi Fujiwara. But at a time when hype culture is dying down and high fashion continues its move away from the skateboard inspired street culture of last decade (not to mention Nigo experiencing serious growing pains at Kenzo and Jun Takahashi ready to scale back his business in these difficult economic times), it’s Children of the Discordance, that, refreshingly, is taking on a role of harmonizing the streetwear aesthetics into a long-lasting language that can live on beyond hype culture.
Interviewed by Ali Khan | Co-Founder
Photo (above): Courtesy of Hideaki Shikama.
PARIS—It’s menswear fashion week and amongst the buzz of countless fashion events (not to mention the Euro cup and the pre-Olympics street parties) a poster on the wall catches our attention. Children of the Discordance, the much sought after Japanese brand, is holding a showroom for their spring/summer 2025 menswear collection.
Established in 2011 with a strong connection to the underground music scene of Tokyo, Children of the Discordance is somewhat of an enigma. Having been around long enough to be an established player on the Tokyo fashion scene, yet still not part of the mainstream fashion language.
Unlike a lot of young designers out of Japan following the likes of the great Rei Kawakubo and Yohji Yamamoto, Hideaki Shikama has walked to the beat of his own drum, finding his cues instead in the codes of youth street culture that have been developed by the likes of Jun Takahashi, Nigo, and Hiroshi Fujiwara. But at a time when hype culture is dying down and high fashion continues its move away from the skateboard inspired street culture of last decade (not to mention Nigo experiencing serious growing pains at Kenzo and Jun Takahashi ready to scale back his business in these difficult economic times), it’s Children of the Discordance, that, refreshingly, is taking on a role of harmonizing the streetwear aesthetics into a long-lasting language that can live on beyond hype culture.
“I wanted to express the authentic Children of the Discordance mood that is closer to my own personality and hence better allows you to feel insights into our daily lives.”
The pain is global. Just within the last 4 years, Supreme
(the proverbial ‘Godfather’ of all things street and hype) has been sold twice
and still languishes in irrelevancy. Others like Palace, Off-white, Bathing Ape
are not faring much better either. Children of the Discordance, with its
comparatively smaller size along with the cachet of ‘Cool Japan’ makes it
better positioned to overcome these challenges.
As I interviewed Shikama, I immediately asked about the decision to not put on a runway show in Paris. “I wanted to express the authentic Children of the Discordance mood that is closer to my own personality and hence better allows you to feel insights into our daily lives.” It’s true, while the spectacle of fashion show may project glamour, all serious brands know the true value of a strong community and a showroom to facilitate exchanges with friends, press, and buyers. And ultimately, it’s there, where the deals are made and orders are placed.
Thus, it makes sense that the current collection titled, “Nothing Usual,” brings the focus back on commonplace elements and the familiar ethos of the brand, potentially a source of comfort in these times of extreme economic and political uncertainty.
This, of course, includes the brand’s ongoing relationship to music that Shikama describes “as indispensable to me as water. Music has been around me for as long as I can remember and it continues to be to this day.” He goes on to describe his favorite slang word, “rhythmatic,” and it’s not difficult to see the affinity. The same word is an apt descriptor for the progression of Children of the Discordance over the years.
Growing up, Shikama’s interest in clothes and street skating have been equally obsessive as his passion for music, but “It was when I was 24 years old that I decided to quit my music career and focus on fashion seriously as a career.” In line with the traditions of the streetwear genre, various influences that culminate in a distinct lifestyle characterize the language of Children of the Discordance.
And as much as these interests define the visual language of the brand, a special role model defines Hideaki Shikama as a person. His father, “an architect, who taught me how to draw, was the biggest influence on me. Actually, my love for fashion and music are also influenced by my father to a large extent,” he states proudly.
Fourteen years into the business, the importance of critical next steps and their timing for success in the coming decades is not lost on Shikama. For the brand’s future plans, he draws on the past, acknowledging the history but clear as to where the future lies. “In Tokyo, seniors such as Hiroshi Fujiwara, Nigo, and Jun Takahashi worked together in the ‘90s in creating a street culture. I sincerely thank them for their work. But can Tokyo be the center of Asia? It may be true right now; I can’t say if it will be the case 10 or 20 years from now. The fashion sensibilities are mature and well developed in Tokyo and rooted in culture, so that is a huge advantage. But doing business worldwide is greatly important now and it is the designer’s role to create new bridges between global cultures that [in turn] create a new fashion language.”
And for that Shikama relies on what he knows best – music collaborations. The connection between music and clothes within the realm of streetwear is well documented and since its inception, Children of the Discordance has had a rich heritage of collaborating with the Japanese underground music scene. For the upcoming season, it was the band, Minna-no-Kimochi, that, according to designer, was a natural choice due to their unique world view that aligned perfectly with the Children of the Discordance ethos. Although most previous collaborations have leaned towards hip-hop, it was a pleasant surprise to see new synergies being formed and as Shikama admitted himself, “I think many people were surprised! They have this image that Shikama equals hip-hop. So, a lot people have asked me about it.”
Collaborations are still very important, Shikama points out, “they can come in a lot of different ways, and allow us to create new products, especially if it is something we can’t express properly based on our background but timing is crucial.” The Children of the Discordance latest collaboration with sportswear brand Umbro extends the brand’s ethos of incorporating vintage clothes into his designs to create new silhouettes, layered graphic prints and textures that stay true to the discordance that the brand so vehemently adheres to, as well as sets itself apart from your regular streetwear brands like Stussy, Fear of God, etc.
As I interviewed Shikama, I immediately asked about the decision to not put on a runway show in Paris. “I wanted to express the authentic Children of the Discordance mood that is closer to my own personality and hence better allows you to feel insights into our daily lives.” It’s true, while the spectacle of fashion show may project glamour, all serious brands know the true value of a strong community and a showroom to facilitate exchanges with friends, press, and buyers. And ultimately, it’s there, where the deals are made and orders are placed.
Thus, it makes sense that the current collection titled, “Nothing Usual,” brings the focus back on commonplace elements and the familiar ethos of the brand, potentially a source of comfort in these times of extreme economic and political uncertainty.
This, of course, includes the brand’s ongoing relationship to music that Shikama describes “as indispensable to me as water. Music has been around me for as long as I can remember and it continues to be to this day.” He goes on to describe his favorite slang word, “rhythmatic,” and it’s not difficult to see the affinity. The same word is an apt descriptor for the progression of Children of the Discordance over the years.
Growing up, Shikama’s interest in clothes and street skating have been equally obsessive as his passion for music, but “It was when I was 24 years old that I decided to quit my music career and focus on fashion seriously as a career.” In line with the traditions of the streetwear genre, various influences that culminate in a distinct lifestyle characterize the language of Children of the Discordance.
And as much as these interests define the visual language of the brand, a special role model defines Hideaki Shikama as a person. His father, “an architect, who taught me how to draw, was the biggest influence on me. Actually, my love for fashion and music are also influenced by my father to a large extent,” he states proudly.
Fourteen years into the business, the importance of critical next steps and their timing for success in the coming decades is not lost on Shikama. For the brand’s future plans, he draws on the past, acknowledging the history but clear as to where the future lies. “In Tokyo, seniors such as Hiroshi Fujiwara, Nigo, and Jun Takahashi worked together in the ‘90s in creating a street culture. I sincerely thank them for their work. But can Tokyo be the center of Asia? It may be true right now; I can’t say if it will be the case 10 or 20 years from now. The fashion sensibilities are mature and well developed in Tokyo and rooted in culture, so that is a huge advantage. But doing business worldwide is greatly important now and it is the designer’s role to create new bridges between global cultures that [in turn] create a new fashion language.”
And for that Shikama relies on what he knows best – music collaborations. The connection between music and clothes within the realm of streetwear is well documented and since its inception, Children of the Discordance has had a rich heritage of collaborating with the Japanese underground music scene. For the upcoming season, it was the band, Minna-no-Kimochi, that, according to designer, was a natural choice due to their unique world view that aligned perfectly with the Children of the Discordance ethos. Although most previous collaborations have leaned towards hip-hop, it was a pleasant surprise to see new synergies being formed and as Shikama admitted himself, “I think many people were surprised! They have this image that Shikama equals hip-hop. So, a lot people have asked me about it.”
Collaborations are still very important, Shikama points out, “they can come in a lot of different ways, and allow us to create new products, especially if it is something we can’t express properly based on our background but timing is crucial.” The Children of the Discordance latest collaboration with sportswear brand Umbro extends the brand’s ethos of incorporating vintage clothes into his designs to create new silhouettes, layered graphic prints and textures that stay true to the discordance that the brand so vehemently adheres to, as well as sets itself apart from your regular streetwear brands like Stussy, Fear of God, etc.
“I think many people were surprised! They have this image that Shikama equals hip-hop. So, a lot of people have asked me about it.”
As a critic of social media, Le Fool struggles to balance
the use of platforms while keeping its potentially harmful impact in mind. Coincidentally
Shikama’s take on it was similar. “I live my life without much exposure to it,”
he explains, “however for the brand we have to make use of it, so I feel this
contradiction consistently.”
The reality of geo-politics is not lost on Shikama either. Even in his most diplomatic tone, he couldn’t help but be saddened by the conflicts around the world and the suffering it causes, “the ordinary people who live in conflict zones have not done anything wrong” he bluntly states. As a person operating a business that employs others, he can’t help but express the effect it has had on the cost of raw materials and product pricing, adding to the complexities of doing business globally. Shikama, though, is also unwavering in his commitment to a global future for the brand. “I will move my presentation overseas within the next few years. We are currently preparing for it” he says, not specifying if it will be Paris, Milan or another city but clear that “it’s an opportunity for a lot more people to see the brand. Brands and artists should always find spaces to grow and strive to create new fashion cultures because that is truly what our role is.” The streetwear market can certainly take some cues from Shikama’s prerogative, as most of them have been lacking the will to take risks and innovate, relying too often on tried and tested old ideas, and if there’s anything fashion despises, it’s a commercial repeat.
Can Hideaki Shikama save streetwear by taking risks and paving the path forward for other skateboard brands to follow? Only time will tell but we can be sure he will give it his best shot, with the same devotion through which he has been able to bring Children of the Discordance this far. As we wrap up the interview, we ask him about the what is new on the Tokyo creative scene, if there is someone who has impressed him recently. Shikama is quick to remind us not to get consumed in fashion only and engage in the amazing culinary scene of Tokyo – “I would love for you to experience other parts of culture as well.” Perhaps fashion and food collaborations can come to the fore in the future---if the timing is right!
The reality of geo-politics is not lost on Shikama either. Even in his most diplomatic tone, he couldn’t help but be saddened by the conflicts around the world and the suffering it causes, “the ordinary people who live in conflict zones have not done anything wrong” he bluntly states. As a person operating a business that employs others, he can’t help but express the effect it has had on the cost of raw materials and product pricing, adding to the complexities of doing business globally. Shikama, though, is also unwavering in his commitment to a global future for the brand. “I will move my presentation overseas within the next few years. We are currently preparing for it” he says, not specifying if it will be Paris, Milan or another city but clear that “it’s an opportunity for a lot more people to see the brand. Brands and artists should always find spaces to grow and strive to create new fashion cultures because that is truly what our role is.” The streetwear market can certainly take some cues from Shikama’s prerogative, as most of them have been lacking the will to take risks and innovate, relying too often on tried and tested old ideas, and if there’s anything fashion despises, it’s a commercial repeat.
Can Hideaki Shikama save streetwear by taking risks and paving the path forward for other skateboard brands to follow? Only time will tell but we can be sure he will give it his best shot, with the same devotion through which he has been able to bring Children of the Discordance this far. As we wrap up the interview, we ask him about the what is new on the Tokyo creative scene, if there is someone who has impressed him recently. Shikama is quick to remind us not to get consumed in fashion only and engage in the amazing culinary scene of Tokyo – “I would love for you to experience other parts of culture as well.” Perhaps fashion and food collaborations can come to the fore in the future---if the timing is right!
Children of the Discordance is available globally at retailers such as SSENSE, 017, Maxfield, LN-CC, Nubian Tokyo amongst others.
View the Children of the Discordance SS25 Collection here.
The featured song from Minna-no-Kimochi can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djGlyTcW30Q
The Gospel of MADE: A Guide for Autodidacts, Multi-Hyphenate Creatives, and the Self-MADE
Meet Jermaine Campbell a.k.a. MADE, musician and creative director of Kustom Godz: capsule one, the brainchild of basketball legend Kevin Garnett.
“People don’t understand, Chicago has some of the greatest artists to ever exist that you never heard of.” Growing up in Aurora, Illinois, just an hour outside of Chicago, Jermaine Campbell’s suburban upbringing made him feel like an outsider to the hip-hop music scene. That is, until Kanye West’s “The College Dropout'' reimagined it in 2004 by introducing middle class themes that bucked genre norms and secularism. As the story goes, the breakout album inspired a new wave of Chicago artists, notably Chance the Rapper, who reached mainstream success without the help of a major record label. For Campbell a.k.a. MADE, who cites Qari Delaney and Luke Titus as peers, and Elton Aura as his main collaborator, laying claim to the city as buried treasure is a sign for us to keep digging, or more appropriately, keep streaming.
You might think it strange, then, that I would have to ask Campbell to clarify what resonates most for him today, fashion or music. Back in February of this year, he helped launch the first capsule collection for Kustom Godz, a line of tailored sweats by basketball legend Kevin Garnett, for which Campbell served as the creative director. MADE tells me, still in disbelief, that he was introduced to “the Big Ticket” at a Paul Smith store in L.A. on what was an otherwise ordinary shift at his day job.
I imagine Garnett needs no introduction. He stands at 6 feet 11 inches and in his basketball shoes, over 7 feet. For the 2023-2024 season, the average height of NBA players was 6’ 6.5.” Off-the-rack suits or ready-to-wear max out at 6’ 2.” Even with the spending power of a professional sports contract, finding something that fits well and looks good can be challenging, forget befitting a professional athlete. Further complicating matters, MADE tells me, “Basketball players, in general, don’t have to be the tallest to be a tough fit. They might be 6' 4," which could normally fit an XXL, but their arms could be ridiculously long, or their glute muscles could be too big for certain pants, even if they fit them on the inseam.”
The NBA tradition of players celebrating their first contract signing with a visit to the tailor goes back further than our recent fascination with athletes’ looks from the tunnel, captured by @leaguefits, the much beloved Instagram account started by SLAM in March 2018.
Just take a look back at an LA Times article from 1993, and you’ll see that Lakers player Sam Perkins liked to spend his free time shopping for suit fabrics when he was on the road and that Kevin Willis, then a player for the Atlanta Hawks, had studied fashion design (his major was in fashion & textiles) at Michigan State. Willis would go on to intern for Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger, and start his own brand, Willis & Walker, which premiered at NYFW in September 2011.
Sports and fashion fans today are lucky to have @leaguefits, which also retrospectively captures the decades ahead looks of Dennis Rodman or the dapper, funky styles of Walt Frazier, in addition to current fascinations, Russell Westbrook or Jordan Clarkson.
You might think it strange, then, that I would have to ask Campbell to clarify what resonates most for him today, fashion or music. Back in February of this year, he helped launch the first capsule collection for Kustom Godz, a line of tailored sweats by basketball legend Kevin Garnett, for which Campbell served as the creative director. MADE tells me, still in disbelief, that he was introduced to “the Big Ticket” at a Paul Smith store in L.A. on what was an otherwise ordinary shift at his day job.
I imagine Garnett needs no introduction. He stands at 6 feet 11 inches and in his basketball shoes, over 7 feet. For the 2023-2024 season, the average height of NBA players was 6’ 6.5.” Off-the-rack suits or ready-to-wear max out at 6’ 2.” Even with the spending power of a professional sports contract, finding something that fits well and looks good can be challenging, forget befitting a professional athlete. Further complicating matters, MADE tells me, “Basketball players, in general, don’t have to be the tallest to be a tough fit. They might be 6' 4," which could normally fit an XXL, but their arms could be ridiculously long, or their glute muscles could be too big for certain pants, even if they fit them on the inseam.”
The NBA tradition of players celebrating their first contract signing with a visit to the tailor goes back further than our recent fascination with athletes’ looks from the tunnel, captured by @leaguefits, the much beloved Instagram account started by SLAM in March 2018.
Just take a look back at an LA Times article from 1993, and you’ll see that Lakers player Sam Perkins liked to spend his free time shopping for suit fabrics when he was on the road and that Kevin Willis, then a player for the Atlanta Hawks, had studied fashion design (his major was in fashion & textiles) at Michigan State. Willis would go on to intern for Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger, and start his own brand, Willis & Walker, which premiered at NYFW in September 2011.
Sports and fashion fans today are lucky to have @leaguefits, which also retrospectively captures the decades ahead looks of Dennis Rodman or the dapper, funky styles of Walt Frazier, in addition to current fascinations, Russell Westbrook or Jordan Clarkson.
Predictably, the NBA tried to clamp down on players dressing up in 2005, with a memo that cited “business casual” as the official dress code, forbidding sleeveless shirts, sunglasses when indoors, chains, pendants etc. Golden State Warriors guard, Jason Richardson called out the policy as racist and in spite of the policy push, stylists such as Courtney Mays have continued to blend hip-hop, emerging brands, and established luxury labels into unique looks that celebrate the player’s personality, pride, love for life and the game.
Garnett’s foray into fashion sits firmly in the #CozyFam category made popular by @leaguefits and incorporates old-school tailoring for that special feeling you can only get from a custom fit.
But back to the music, which MADE resolutely chose over fashion when I asked him for clarification. MADE began to pursue a musical career in his early 20s and rediscovered the natural inclination he had: He didn’t grow up playing any instruments and has no formal training; everything he does now—writing, recording, producing—he’s had to learn on his own. The earliest track available online is from 2017, “Don’t Stop” featuring EKO on Apple Music, which was followed by a slew of singles until 2020, when he released the EP, “Black Stories.” He returned in 2022 with “By Myself” and a follow up, “By Myself: Double Text” in 2023. In the same year, he released “The Great Outdoors” and companion projects to the albums: a “Great Outdoors Discussion” and “A Convo with No Budget” for further reflection on the themes of each project. Paul Smith was a way to make an honest living, immersed in a secondary interest.
Garnett’s foray into fashion sits firmly in the #CozyFam category made popular by @leaguefits and incorporates old-school tailoring for that special feeling you can only get from a custom fit.
But back to the music, which MADE resolutely chose over fashion when I asked him for clarification. MADE began to pursue a musical career in his early 20s and rediscovered the natural inclination he had: He didn’t grow up playing any instruments and has no formal training; everything he does now—writing, recording, producing—he’s had to learn on his own. The earliest track available online is from 2017, “Don’t Stop” featuring EKO on Apple Music, which was followed by a slew of singles until 2020, when he released the EP, “Black Stories.” He returned in 2022 with “By Myself” and a follow up, “By Myself: Double Text” in 2023. In the same year, he released “The Great Outdoors” and companion projects to the albums: a “Great Outdoors Discussion” and “A Convo with No Budget” for further reflection on the themes of each project. Paul Smith was a way to make an honest living, immersed in a secondary interest.
“I just remember when I was a kid, I used to be able to memorize music very well, like if I heard a song playing through a wall. One night I was sleeping, and I woke up and heard the neighbors having a party next door. I could hear the bassline through the wall, and just from that, I could put together the rest of the instruments that were in the song at a young age. I never knew what that meant but I was always curious about it, and I think that’s what led me to trying to do music later in life.”
Despite fashion taking a secondary role, MADE is still invested. After all, taking inspiration from Ye isn’t for dabblers or for sycophants, and MADE questions luxury as a part of his design process. A question, Ye’s previously oft-collaborator, Demna Gvasalia, publicly asked (and answered) during the premiere of Balenciaga’s Winter 2024 collection.
In the line of such questioning there’s little room for self-delusions and admiration is earned. MADE says, “The thing that I hate is that emblems and status sway people’s taste. Do we really like that car, or do we really like the brand of the car? Or do we think that just because it’s expensive, we want it? Do we really like Balenciaga, or do we really like the shirt we saw in Zara? You could be in a position to acquire both, but if you trust your taste, it doesn’t matter what the stake or the circumstances are.”
In an era where many European luxury brands are overreaching the natural boundaries of their influence and forsaking positioning for the sake of growth, MADE’s sentiments are a part of a greater interrogation of luxury. Balenciaga gave permission, as Kanye did for Black artists living outside of the city, for shunned cultures to take up space on the global stage. MADE’s vocalizations in music and fashion could prove to be another conduit in this global movement.
In this interview with Le Fool, Campbell shares with us his gospel for art-making—an inspiring guidebook for autodidacts, multi-hyphenate creatives and the self-MADE.
October 6, 2024
Interviewed by Jee Young Park | Co-Founder
Photo (above): Courtesy of MADE, Jermaine Campbell
LE FOOL: There were many ways to start this interview because you have a world unto your name. I see you in Jamaica, NYC, LA, London, and Paris. In terms of interests, you’re just as adventurous; you explore fashion, music, relationship advice, lessons in getting fired, to faith. When I look at your body of work, the feeling I get is, “your cup runneth over.” Do you ever feel overwhelmed as a result? Like there is so much you have to do and say and not enough time?
MADE: I feel super overwhelmed! And all my friends, all my peers know this about me because whenever I need to do something I don’t know what to do or where to start.
It’s a gift and a curse that I’ve taught myself how to do so many things creatively and I have such a vast interest in things that I want to pursue.
In making music, I can write the music, I can record the music, and I can produce the music. Then you go into creative direction. I know how to do all these things, but I never know where to start.
And a lot of the time I do too much heavy lifting and I get extremely overwhelmed to the point where I’ll just disappear. That’s something even people who have kept up with my work or kept up with my life and journey will notice. I just go away. You will not see me on social media. I might have deleted that shit. Or maybe I’ll come back, or I’ll come back as a new image or a new profile.
Whatever the case may be, I have to constantly reset or restart and that’s something that’s a little bit frustrating because I’m a self-aware person. I’ll have certain conversations with my peers, my friends, my family and I’ll be venting to them, and I’ll realize — “You do the same thing every time, you bite off more than you can chew.”
What I’m starting to embrace is that, since I’m a multi-creative, I have to set my own schedule. I have to set my own task list and that is extremely important. I can’t create spontaneously. I have to direct my focus at times.
I also have to remind myself that things take time to get done. That frustrates me because I’m the type of creative where I could finish something in a night, and I want to put it out tomorrow. That’s who I am. That’s how I work. And that’s what excites me.
The art of leaving something undone but still trusting that it will either get done or everything will be okay without it, is a shocking but necessary thing that I’m trying to instill into my life as a person and as a creative.
It's like heartbreak. When I listen back to my album, “By Myself” there’s so much demand for closure. Then I started to learn in life that you don’t always get closure. You don’t always need closure and sometimes the closure that you need in the moment is not the masterpiece.
The masterpiece is when you forget about it and you’re living a life, and you realize, damn, if these things did not happen, then I could not be in this space that I’m so at peace with and I wouldn’t trade this for anything.
For me, I get to that place through my art. Nowadays I tell myself, be okay with the fact that you made something extremely hot but it’s not going to see the light of day.
You might’ve needed to make that, or you might’ve needed to fail at trying to make that and it actually helped.
Or because it’s not out there, you can take pieces from that and implement it into something that needs it more.
It’s all about creating balance and really letting things develop on their own time. That would be my short answer. Letting things develop and not being so much in control, even though I could do all these things.
But yes, it’s very overwhelming.
LE FOOL: How do you know a project is complete? Is it a feeling or does something else naturally come up?
MADE: I’ll answer this in two ways. Projects I’ve worked on in the past are complete when I stop wanting to live in that world, in that sound or in that look. Usually there’s nothing else to do or I start to overthink things and be like, “Oh, I wish…”
When I start to wish things were different, I know it’s probably best that I just go ahead and put a ribbon on it because then I’m just being the character trait of pretty much every true artist, which is a perfectionist and as we know there’s no such thing as perfection. That’s when I usually know I’m done.
Granted, this last year is probably the longest time that I’ve spent without putting out a project or music. I don’t think I’ve put out anything since “The Great Outdoors.”
It’s been about a year because my employment required my creativity for the first time ever. Which was interesting. A lot of my energy went into that and not into what I was doing anymore. It just opened up a window of time for things to happen.
A lot of the time I would think about my art and my work as something that was going to save me or take me out of the life I was living. It wasn’t until a few short years ago when I realized my art is my art and I believe it will take me to the heights that I want to go. However, there are things that I can do practically that will still give me the life that I want to live, and it will only enhance my art.
Last year—I think for the first time—I was working a position that was very healthy for me financially. So, I was not rushed at all, and it was a new perspective. Before that, everything I did, I had to get done because my life wasn’t right. But what I know now is that when my life is right, I’m looking at everything like I don’t have to do anything in a hurry.
My favorite quote is, “Be quick but don’t hurry” because there’s a difference between moving with a sense of purpose versus rushing. I would say if you were to ask me then, that most of the projects I’ve put out feel complete. But you know, “The Great Outdoors,” I think it was seven or eight, I think I made it to nine tracks, who knows right? And I felt like that’s a proper album— that’s not a four, five track EP, seven track EP. I only wondered what it would’ve been like if I could dedicate my whole life to creating “The Great Outdoors.” What if it had been a situation where I had to deliver an album and someone had said, “We’ll give you three years to just live and work on this,” then “The Great Outdoors” might have been 14 tracks, I don’t know.
I guess to answer the question, it’s within the window that you decide. This is something that’s important, setting deadlines — right? If you don’t set a deadline, then you’ll be creating forever.
So, how do you know when a project is done? When there’s nothing left to do or when you realize you’re making excuses and perfectionistic is how, but it’s also when you hit your deadline.
I feel like a lot of artists don’t graduate for the same reason a lot of students don’t graduate, you could’ve been holding onto something that you intended to do forever—you intended to complete forever—but yo! If you miss the assignment date, you don’t pass to the next grade. I think that’s something that we as artists always got to be aware of in our creative process.
LE FOOL: How do you stay focused in your work while maintaining a presence across multiple platforms?
MADE: I can’t even answer this question because I don’t even know how I do it to be honest. To reference again what I was talking about earlier, it’s just one of those things where I crash out a lot. I would say this as my answer, creating a balance — and I’m still not perfect at that, I’m a work in progress when it comes to that.
LE FOOL: In “The Great Outdoors” album notes you wrote, “[Black Campfire Song] was not made when it was ‘up.’ It was really low actually…the original lyrics was actually ‘F**K These n++++s’…but that was written years ago…The tone the album took on was more uplifting and positive…” Do you feel like this was a more fundamental change in your personality than “staying positive”? And some people never make this shift, even on a winning streak. I’m curious to know if there were instances where you said to yourself, “Wow, thank goodness I kept to it despite how difficult it was”? How has cultivating this mindset served you? For ambitious artists on a budget, what is one tip to help spark this mindset?
MADE: When I made “Black Campfire Song” it was really like a freestyle. I remember it was somebody’s birthday and we were in the room just creating. When I came up with the melody it was so catchy. I think I was infatuated by the simplicity of songs that are geared to kids but end up being hits for adults.
If you look at Lil Yachty’s “One Night,” it’s essentially the same kind of melody that you would hear in “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” and “The ABC Song” — things that are just that simple. So, I remember doing it and putting on my Kanye hat, thinking, “Oh, this is really controversial. Let’s do it!”
I wrote that so many years ago. Now, as an artist who’s 30 years old as opposed to an artist that’s 26 or 18 or 21, I just have more understanding of how these things affect human beings because I’ve had to address that in myself.
In making the whole album, I went through a lot of different transitions in life. I feel like I’ve always had a relationship with God, but I’ve never been able to cope with the fact that I was raised in Christianity. I let go of Christianity at a certain point then transitioned into overall wellness — exploring authors like Deepak Chopra and reading books like “The Power of Now” — things that weren’t encouraged when I was in church — and then made it back to my walk in faith as a Christian.
As a sidebar: I believe all religion is a language to a higher power and some people’s language is Buddhism, some people’s language is Islam, I just happen to have a grandmother who is Christian and instilled that particular faith in everybody in my family.
For me, by the time I got to the end, all of the songs on this album, the creative process of putting it all together, it was so much about trying to keep the standard of being “real,” and being honest about real things in life: Being honest about what it feels like to grieve. What it feels like to lose people that you love. What it feels like to be stripped down so much that you’re just seeing life at a place where it’s extremely beautiful even with all the ugly things that have happened to you. That is the “Great Outdoors” in a nutshell.
Then I had this song, “Black Campfire Song” — which is why it’s called “Black Campfire Song” — where I was saying, “fuck these N****s.” It was the beginning of the project and I sent it to Elton Aura, who is a close friend of mine that I always work with, and we both kind of agreed when listening to it that it was, for all of the positivity and the resolve (me and Elton talk a lot about putting art out there that has a resolution as much as it is raw), I wouldn’t want anybody to stop at track one and all they got from it is, “Fuck these N****s” and that it’s as catchy as ABC’s.
I actually had somebody say that to me who wasn’t Black. When they heard the album before it was out, they were like, “Oh yeah, I keep hearing this when I’m brushing my teeth.” And I’m like, “Okay, that’s probably a little bit dangerous.” I had to flip it into something that was more positive because I want the art to work for good, and I want it to be well communicated.
To answer another part of the question, a tip that could spark a proper mindset to be creative and ambitious on a budget is to work with the people around you and embrace learning new skills. I didn’t come into my career thinking that I was going to be the one holding the camera and mixing and mastering my own work, so on and so forth.
On my very first project, I mixed and mastered on my own, and that ended terribly. That was devastating to me because I thought that one project was everything. I thought it was my moment. But the more you live and the more you create, you realize, “No, that was just the moment that you were in, and it’s not all that bad that you fucked it up.”
The two projects after, I paid somebody to do it, but I watched them very closely while they were doing it. By the time I got to “By Myself: Double Text” I was doing my own mixes.
“The Great Outdoors” is one of my favorite projects as far as how I delivered it and I’m the one that mixed and mastered it. The things that you refuse to do or think you shouldn’t have to do, make sure that you always do something towards being more well-versed in it, because you never know. That might actually be your task someday, and now I actually embrace it, and I love it.
LE FOOL: In “A Great Outdoors Discussion,” there’s a lovely moment when you’re talking about being in nature as opposed to the city, and you can hear the beats in your reply, from feeling singled out or perhaps a little alone, then relishing it — it’s a revelation, the self in nature, “I’m the only one bringing the loud music. I’m the only one bringing it man but I’m perfectly fine with being the only, you know, that’s the other thing too, I feel more unique in spaces like this, I feel more myself…” I feel like you’re talking about finding negative space, that clean canvas, and how you can find that in nature. In addition to nature, what are other ways artists can look for empty spaces to speak into? Or cope with the void? Is it through travel? Reflection? A glass of water in the morning? Routines? I guess I’m essentially asking how you stay sane as a creative person.
MADE: All the ones you mentioned in your questions are actually great. It just depends on who you are. For me, being in the void is something that is very important as an artist, and it’s an easy one to forget too. I have to remind myself that it’s a part of my day the same way that eating and drinking is. It’s a part of my day to meditate. It’s a part of my day to pray. It’s a part of the fuel behind my creation to go see another walk of life.
If I could travel and get on a flight, that’s ideal. But if I can’t do that and I can just take a drive or if I can be in an unfamiliar space to notice a life outside of mine then you know, that’s also sufficient enough to help my art and to help spark creativity.
At the end of the day, we are all just vessels. We are all shaped differently. Imagine every artist were a statue or a sculpture just out in the world, and it only has one variable, and that’s basically where it’s placed.
You can pick up this sculpture and move it into an empty field in the grasslands and you could point it ninety degrees west and then the wind comes, and it might be gentle, it might be a tornado, you just never know.
Based on that, you will get the sound that that instrument creates, and I feel like as artists we are all just instruments that are channeling the wind or the force that comes through us.
The most important part for us is to do inventory and make sure that we’re cleansing to be able to create the purest sound. And I think that’s why a lot of artists suffer — from buildup. We have buildup and there’s no clear space for the air, for the message to run through you. Then you’re probably not going to be making…well, you’re probably not going to make a sound.
Or you’re not going to make the sound that you want. Or that you expected. Or that you know you can make. But if you do the things that keep you healthy — that’s cleaning the instrument, cleaning the vessel — so that energy can flow through it more effectively, that’s what it’s all about!
Things like traveling changes the tune of the sound, or it could just refresh you, it could be a part of that cleansing, but it’s all about what we’re ingesting through our senses, that create the art that happens through us as artists, as creatives.
LE FOOL: Who are your greatest influences and why?
MADE: I would definitely say Kanye is my greatest influence and I would say the why is because he did it. I’m from Aurora, Illinois. He did what he did in Chicago and there’s nobody who has ever done anything to that magnitude in Chicago to my knowledge. Not in my era at least.
People don’t understand, Chicago has some of the greatest artists to ever exist that you never heard of. And at the end of the day, you look at L.A. there’s a music industry there. You see Capitol Records buildings, you see Warner Music, you see the music or the movie industry.
You look at New York, it’s the same thing — you’ll see Def Jam or Roc Nation and you know, all of these industries for the music to actually progress and grow, get out there to the world.
In Chicago we have a few small record labels, zero major record labels and we’re a major city. And we have tons, we have a thriving art scene, but a lot of the time, it’s kept local. I got to see the most of that in Kanye West and that’s what I relate to the most. His walk in the beginning most spoke to me.
I grew up in Aurora, Illinois, not Chicago, Illinois. I never fit in when I went to the city, at least when I was a kid. I was always going to be labeled a kid from the suburbs. I was always going to be labeled as a Black kid with a white walk of life. And Kanye was the first person, the first artist I came into contact with who embodied a walk of life that did not involve violence or selling drugs and an interest in hip-hop. All the things that hip-hop was known for before him. And, of course, that’s not all hip-hop was about, that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m saying that it would have been impossible for somebody from anywhere that wasn’t living in a major inner city if it weren’t for him. It would have been impossible if Kanye West or someone like Kanye West did not exist. It would have been impossible for somebody from the suburbs to make it in rap, decide that they want to sing, or use and make house music at times. Or wear a pink polo or be into fashion. Being into actual fashion was taboo in hip-hop, so all of these things came with their own labels. I would definitely say that as much as I try not to say Kanye West — Kanye West.
I want to name some of my other influences as well. Definitely Jay-Z. His ability as a wordsmith is something that I really respect. His acumen as a businessman and as a thought leader too.
I’ve always respected Pharrell. Pharrell is one of my biggest influences and I love his ability to communicate and bring people together. It makes so much sense to me that he made so many hit records as a producer because 75% or more of producing is all about communication and getting people together. Putting people in a position where they can bring out their best selves. Maybe 25% or even a smaller percentage is about the actual music that’s being put out there.
And he made people feel so confident singing on them beats that sounded a little incomplete or singing “Frontin’” which I hated when I was a kid because he really does not have the richest voice but man, his ability to express and his belief in himself and him just being like—a Martian, it was like all-time. He’s one of my all-time influences for sure.
And he lives in so many different spaces, not just as a producer, but as an artist, as a creative director, as a collaborator, you know, as a humanitarian. The way that Pharrell lives his life as far as I can see — because I don’t know any of these people — it’s more sustainable when I watch his art and his life. It’s sustainable for me to model my art and my life after.
The taste of Kanye West is just on some whole other shit but how he lives his life is harder to process and harder to understand. It’s less sustainable for your everyday person or everyday artist. An everyday person couldn’t get away with the shit that Kanye West does. An everyday person couldn’t get away with the things Kanye says without merit or accountability. But an everyday person can thrive and live a fruitful life in whatever they do if they take a little bit of what Pharrell has shown us publicly.
So, Kanye West, Pharrell, Jay-Z. I love Q-Tip too, I love J Dilla, I like to look at the people who influenced the people who influenced me, and those are some of those names.
Interviewed by Jee Young Park | Co-Founder
Photo (above): Courtesy of MADE, Jermaine Campbell
LE FOOL: There were many ways to start this interview because you have a world unto your name. I see you in Jamaica, NYC, LA, London, and Paris. In terms of interests, you’re just as adventurous; you explore fashion, music, relationship advice, lessons in getting fired, to faith. When I look at your body of work, the feeling I get is, “your cup runneth over.” Do you ever feel overwhelmed as a result? Like there is so much you have to do and say and not enough time?
MADE: I feel super overwhelmed! And all my friends, all my peers know this about me because whenever I need to do something I don’t know what to do or where to start.
It’s a gift and a curse that I’ve taught myself how to do so many things creatively and I have such a vast interest in things that I want to pursue.
In making music, I can write the music, I can record the music, and I can produce the music. Then you go into creative direction. I know how to do all these things, but I never know where to start.
And a lot of the time I do too much heavy lifting and I get extremely overwhelmed to the point where I’ll just disappear. That’s something even people who have kept up with my work or kept up with my life and journey will notice. I just go away. You will not see me on social media. I might have deleted that shit. Or maybe I’ll come back, or I’ll come back as a new image or a new profile.
Whatever the case may be, I have to constantly reset or restart and that’s something that’s a little bit frustrating because I’m a self-aware person. I’ll have certain conversations with my peers, my friends, my family and I’ll be venting to them, and I’ll realize — “You do the same thing every time, you bite off more than you can chew.”
What I’m starting to embrace is that, since I’m a multi-creative, I have to set my own schedule. I have to set my own task list and that is extremely important. I can’t create spontaneously. I have to direct my focus at times.
I also have to remind myself that things take time to get done. That frustrates me because I’m the type of creative where I could finish something in a night, and I want to put it out tomorrow. That’s who I am. That’s how I work. And that’s what excites me.
The art of leaving something undone but still trusting that it will either get done or everything will be okay without it, is a shocking but necessary thing that I’m trying to instill into my life as a person and as a creative.
It's like heartbreak. When I listen back to my album, “By Myself” there’s so much demand for closure. Then I started to learn in life that you don’t always get closure. You don’t always need closure and sometimes the closure that you need in the moment is not the masterpiece.
The masterpiece is when you forget about it and you’re living a life, and you realize, damn, if these things did not happen, then I could not be in this space that I’m so at peace with and I wouldn’t trade this for anything.
For me, I get to that place through my art. Nowadays I tell myself, be okay with the fact that you made something extremely hot but it’s not going to see the light of day.
You might’ve needed to make that, or you might’ve needed to fail at trying to make that and it actually helped.
Or because it’s not out there, you can take pieces from that and implement it into something that needs it more.
It’s all about creating balance and really letting things develop on their own time. That would be my short answer. Letting things develop and not being so much in control, even though I could do all these things.
But yes, it’s very overwhelming.
LE FOOL: How do you know a project is complete? Is it a feeling or does something else naturally come up?
MADE: I’ll answer this in two ways. Projects I’ve worked on in the past are complete when I stop wanting to live in that world, in that sound or in that look. Usually there’s nothing else to do or I start to overthink things and be like, “Oh, I wish…”
When I start to wish things were different, I know it’s probably best that I just go ahead and put a ribbon on it because then I’m just being the character trait of pretty much every true artist, which is a perfectionist and as we know there’s no such thing as perfection. That’s when I usually know I’m done.
Granted, this last year is probably the longest time that I’ve spent without putting out a project or music. I don’t think I’ve put out anything since “The Great Outdoors.”
It’s been about a year because my employment required my creativity for the first time ever. Which was interesting. A lot of my energy went into that and not into what I was doing anymore. It just opened up a window of time for things to happen.
A lot of the time I would think about my art and my work as something that was going to save me or take me out of the life I was living. It wasn’t until a few short years ago when I realized my art is my art and I believe it will take me to the heights that I want to go. However, there are things that I can do practically that will still give me the life that I want to live, and it will only enhance my art.
Last year—I think for the first time—I was working a position that was very healthy for me financially. So, I was not rushed at all, and it was a new perspective. Before that, everything I did, I had to get done because my life wasn’t right. But what I know now is that when my life is right, I’m looking at everything like I don’t have to do anything in a hurry.
My favorite quote is, “Be quick but don’t hurry” because there’s a difference between moving with a sense of purpose versus rushing. I would say if you were to ask me then, that most of the projects I’ve put out feel complete. But you know, “The Great Outdoors,” I think it was seven or eight, I think I made it to nine tracks, who knows right? And I felt like that’s a proper album— that’s not a four, five track EP, seven track EP. I only wondered what it would’ve been like if I could dedicate my whole life to creating “The Great Outdoors.” What if it had been a situation where I had to deliver an album and someone had said, “We’ll give you three years to just live and work on this,” then “The Great Outdoors” might have been 14 tracks, I don’t know.
I guess to answer the question, it’s within the window that you decide. This is something that’s important, setting deadlines — right? If you don’t set a deadline, then you’ll be creating forever.
So, how do you know when a project is done? When there’s nothing left to do or when you realize you’re making excuses and perfectionistic is how, but it’s also when you hit your deadline.
I feel like a lot of artists don’t graduate for the same reason a lot of students don’t graduate, you could’ve been holding onto something that you intended to do forever—you intended to complete forever—but yo! If you miss the assignment date, you don’t pass to the next grade. I think that’s something that we as artists always got to be aware of in our creative process.
LE FOOL: How do you stay focused in your work while maintaining a presence across multiple platforms?
MADE: I can’t even answer this question because I don’t even know how I do it to be honest. To reference again what I was talking about earlier, it’s just one of those things where I crash out a lot. I would say this as my answer, creating a balance — and I’m still not perfect at that, I’m a work in progress when it comes to that.
LE FOOL: In “The Great Outdoors” album notes you wrote, “[Black Campfire Song] was not made when it was ‘up.’ It was really low actually…the original lyrics was actually ‘F**K These n++++s’…but that was written years ago…The tone the album took on was more uplifting and positive…” Do you feel like this was a more fundamental change in your personality than “staying positive”? And some people never make this shift, even on a winning streak. I’m curious to know if there were instances where you said to yourself, “Wow, thank goodness I kept to it despite how difficult it was”? How has cultivating this mindset served you? For ambitious artists on a budget, what is one tip to help spark this mindset?
MADE: When I made “Black Campfire Song” it was really like a freestyle. I remember it was somebody’s birthday and we were in the room just creating. When I came up with the melody it was so catchy. I think I was infatuated by the simplicity of songs that are geared to kids but end up being hits for adults.
If you look at Lil Yachty’s “One Night,” it’s essentially the same kind of melody that you would hear in “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” and “The ABC Song” — things that are just that simple. So, I remember doing it and putting on my Kanye hat, thinking, “Oh, this is really controversial. Let’s do it!”
I wrote that so many years ago. Now, as an artist who’s 30 years old as opposed to an artist that’s 26 or 18 or 21, I just have more understanding of how these things affect human beings because I’ve had to address that in myself.
In making the whole album, I went through a lot of different transitions in life. I feel like I’ve always had a relationship with God, but I’ve never been able to cope with the fact that I was raised in Christianity. I let go of Christianity at a certain point then transitioned into overall wellness — exploring authors like Deepak Chopra and reading books like “The Power of Now” — things that weren’t encouraged when I was in church — and then made it back to my walk in faith as a Christian.
As a sidebar: I believe all religion is a language to a higher power and some people’s language is Buddhism, some people’s language is Islam, I just happen to have a grandmother who is Christian and instilled that particular faith in everybody in my family.
For me, by the time I got to the end, all of the songs on this album, the creative process of putting it all together, it was so much about trying to keep the standard of being “real,” and being honest about real things in life: Being honest about what it feels like to grieve. What it feels like to lose people that you love. What it feels like to be stripped down so much that you’re just seeing life at a place where it’s extremely beautiful even with all the ugly things that have happened to you. That is the “Great Outdoors” in a nutshell.
Then I had this song, “Black Campfire Song” — which is why it’s called “Black Campfire Song” — where I was saying, “fuck these N****s.” It was the beginning of the project and I sent it to Elton Aura, who is a close friend of mine that I always work with, and we both kind of agreed when listening to it that it was, for all of the positivity and the resolve (me and Elton talk a lot about putting art out there that has a resolution as much as it is raw), I wouldn’t want anybody to stop at track one and all they got from it is, “Fuck these N****s” and that it’s as catchy as ABC’s.
I actually had somebody say that to me who wasn’t Black. When they heard the album before it was out, they were like, “Oh yeah, I keep hearing this when I’m brushing my teeth.” And I’m like, “Okay, that’s probably a little bit dangerous.” I had to flip it into something that was more positive because I want the art to work for good, and I want it to be well communicated.
To answer another part of the question, a tip that could spark a proper mindset to be creative and ambitious on a budget is to work with the people around you and embrace learning new skills. I didn’t come into my career thinking that I was going to be the one holding the camera and mixing and mastering my own work, so on and so forth.
On my very first project, I mixed and mastered on my own, and that ended terribly. That was devastating to me because I thought that one project was everything. I thought it was my moment. But the more you live and the more you create, you realize, “No, that was just the moment that you were in, and it’s not all that bad that you fucked it up.”
The two projects after, I paid somebody to do it, but I watched them very closely while they were doing it. By the time I got to “By Myself: Double Text” I was doing my own mixes.
“The Great Outdoors” is one of my favorite projects as far as how I delivered it and I’m the one that mixed and mastered it. The things that you refuse to do or think you shouldn’t have to do, make sure that you always do something towards being more well-versed in it, because you never know. That might actually be your task someday, and now I actually embrace it, and I love it.
LE FOOL: In “A Great Outdoors Discussion,” there’s a lovely moment when you’re talking about being in nature as opposed to the city, and you can hear the beats in your reply, from feeling singled out or perhaps a little alone, then relishing it — it’s a revelation, the self in nature, “I’m the only one bringing the loud music. I’m the only one bringing it man but I’m perfectly fine with being the only, you know, that’s the other thing too, I feel more unique in spaces like this, I feel more myself…” I feel like you’re talking about finding negative space, that clean canvas, and how you can find that in nature. In addition to nature, what are other ways artists can look for empty spaces to speak into? Or cope with the void? Is it through travel? Reflection? A glass of water in the morning? Routines? I guess I’m essentially asking how you stay sane as a creative person.
MADE: All the ones you mentioned in your questions are actually great. It just depends on who you are. For me, being in the void is something that is very important as an artist, and it’s an easy one to forget too. I have to remind myself that it’s a part of my day the same way that eating and drinking is. It’s a part of my day to meditate. It’s a part of my day to pray. It’s a part of the fuel behind my creation to go see another walk of life.
If I could travel and get on a flight, that’s ideal. But if I can’t do that and I can just take a drive or if I can be in an unfamiliar space to notice a life outside of mine then you know, that’s also sufficient enough to help my art and to help spark creativity.
At the end of the day, we are all just vessels. We are all shaped differently. Imagine every artist were a statue or a sculpture just out in the world, and it only has one variable, and that’s basically where it’s placed.
You can pick up this sculpture and move it into an empty field in the grasslands and you could point it ninety degrees west and then the wind comes, and it might be gentle, it might be a tornado, you just never know.
Based on that, you will get the sound that that instrument creates, and I feel like as artists we are all just instruments that are channeling the wind or the force that comes through us.
The most important part for us is to do inventory and make sure that we’re cleansing to be able to create the purest sound. And I think that’s why a lot of artists suffer — from buildup. We have buildup and there’s no clear space for the air, for the message to run through you. Then you’re probably not going to be making…well, you’re probably not going to make a sound.
Or you’re not going to make the sound that you want. Or that you expected. Or that you know you can make. But if you do the things that keep you healthy — that’s cleaning the instrument, cleaning the vessel — so that energy can flow through it more effectively, that’s what it’s all about!
Things like traveling changes the tune of the sound, or it could just refresh you, it could be a part of that cleansing, but it’s all about what we’re ingesting through our senses, that create the art that happens through us as artists, as creatives.
LE FOOL: Who are your greatest influences and why?
MADE: I would definitely say Kanye is my greatest influence and I would say the why is because he did it. I’m from Aurora, Illinois. He did what he did in Chicago and there’s nobody who has ever done anything to that magnitude in Chicago to my knowledge. Not in my era at least.
People don’t understand, Chicago has some of the greatest artists to ever exist that you never heard of. And at the end of the day, you look at L.A. there’s a music industry there. You see Capitol Records buildings, you see Warner Music, you see the music or the movie industry.
You look at New York, it’s the same thing — you’ll see Def Jam or Roc Nation and you know, all of these industries for the music to actually progress and grow, get out there to the world.
In Chicago we have a few small record labels, zero major record labels and we’re a major city. And we have tons, we have a thriving art scene, but a lot of the time, it’s kept local. I got to see the most of that in Kanye West and that’s what I relate to the most. His walk in the beginning most spoke to me.
I grew up in Aurora, Illinois, not Chicago, Illinois. I never fit in when I went to the city, at least when I was a kid. I was always going to be labeled a kid from the suburbs. I was always going to be labeled as a Black kid with a white walk of life. And Kanye was the first person, the first artist I came into contact with who embodied a walk of life that did not involve violence or selling drugs and an interest in hip-hop. All the things that hip-hop was known for before him. And, of course, that’s not all hip-hop was about, that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m saying that it would have been impossible for somebody from anywhere that wasn’t living in a major inner city if it weren’t for him. It would have been impossible if Kanye West or someone like Kanye West did not exist. It would have been impossible for somebody from the suburbs to make it in rap, decide that they want to sing, or use and make house music at times. Or wear a pink polo or be into fashion. Being into actual fashion was taboo in hip-hop, so all of these things came with their own labels. I would definitely say that as much as I try not to say Kanye West — Kanye West.
I want to name some of my other influences as well. Definitely Jay-Z. His ability as a wordsmith is something that I really respect. His acumen as a businessman and as a thought leader too.
I’ve always respected Pharrell. Pharrell is one of my biggest influences and I love his ability to communicate and bring people together. It makes so much sense to me that he made so many hit records as a producer because 75% or more of producing is all about communication and getting people together. Putting people in a position where they can bring out their best selves. Maybe 25% or even a smaller percentage is about the actual music that’s being put out there.
And he made people feel so confident singing on them beats that sounded a little incomplete or singing “Frontin’” which I hated when I was a kid because he really does not have the richest voice but man, his ability to express and his belief in himself and him just being like—a Martian, it was like all-time. He’s one of my all-time influences for sure.
And he lives in so many different spaces, not just as a producer, but as an artist, as a creative director, as a collaborator, you know, as a humanitarian. The way that Pharrell lives his life as far as I can see — because I don’t know any of these people — it’s more sustainable when I watch his art and his life. It’s sustainable for me to model my art and my life after.
The taste of Kanye West is just on some whole other shit but how he lives his life is harder to process and harder to understand. It’s less sustainable for your everyday person or everyday artist. An everyday person couldn’t get away with the shit that Kanye West does. An everyday person couldn’t get away with the things Kanye says without merit or accountability. But an everyday person can thrive and live a fruitful life in whatever they do if they take a little bit of what Pharrell has shown us publicly.
So, Kanye West, Pharrell, Jay-Z. I love Q-Tip too, I love J Dilla, I like to look at the people who influenced the people who influenced me, and those are some of those names.
“Now, I feel heartbreak is just a specific label for an unpredictable outcome or a feeling that comes in the process of transitioning. So instead of labeling it as, ‘I am inspired by heartbreak’ now I’ll look at it as, ‘There’s an opportunity in every transition in life.’”
On “A Convo with No BudgetTM”
“The purpose of each episode was to give context to the tracks on ‘By Myself.’”
LE FOOL: I want to talk about feeling undesirable which was a motif of your album, “By Myself.” For the accompanying project, “A Convo with No BudgetTM,” you describe the different phases of relationships that you explored on the album. I loved the chemistry between you and Omenihu — you two must be close to be able to bring that up considering the specificity of the emotion: Loneliness can be a matter of personal choice, but undesirability comes from perceiving the way others treat you. It’s not something that anyone would be eager to own up to. Why was it important for you to talk about this?
MADE: First of all, thank you for listening to the podcast and being so observant. I come from the perspective of being an artist and I think the most important thing that an artist can do is to show the parts of humanity that people don’t typically have the courage to own up to on their own.
If I look at my favorite artists, they all share a specific quality: They are creatives who form tribes and lead thought. One of my favorites as I mentioned — probably tragically and disagreeably — is Kanye West. That’s the person that influenced me the most in the primary stage of growth as an artist.
For Kanye, his whole thing is about self-belief and confidence, and maybe even being egotistical. Then you look at artists like Jay-Z. His whole brand is about being self-made, being a hustler and being a mogul.
I said all that to say, when you’re an artist of real impact whatever you do reflects some sort of interest that allows people to see you, or see your work, and identify with an aspiration or access to therapeutic processing to get through.
For me, feeling undesirable was just what I was dealing with at that time and that feeling is probably not going to go away ever in life. But it’s just remembering sometimes you’re so fresh into something that you take every little thing personally.
It’s like you feel every needle poke that’s happening, but once you realize, okay, I’m just in a sharp environment while on my way to what really, really is for me in life, it makes it a lot easier to transcend that process but when you’re slow revving through it, it’s torture.
I just bring up being vulnerable and I use myself as a target because I know there are so many other people who need to be spoken up for. I actually appreciate the people who have those sensitivities because whenever you get to talk to them, there’s such a level of depth that’s kind of missing from everybody else who holds that type of stuff back or just acts like it doesn’t exist.
LE FOOL: The “By Myself” era was a real salve for broken hearts — did heartbreak inspire you?
MADE: Heartbreak is always inspirational for me — for anybody.
It’s kind of crazy because the audience knows that. People will sit and playfully be like, “Man, Summer Walker is not going to make good music until she gets her heart broken again.” Or “Kanye needs to experience another loss before we get another version of my ‘My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy.’” And that’s really sad.
Now I’m in a more mature stage in life and I’m trying to do things that are healthy in my art. Early on, I feel that’s the easiest thing to do when you’re an artist — “Nobody loves me. Nobody likes me. I need attention so I’m going to do these things. And I’m going to put people on blast, you know, because I was dealt heartbreak or whatever the case may be” — and there’s great art that comes from that. But where I’m standing today, I feel differently than I did about two or three years ago when I put out “By Myself.”
Now, I feel heartbreak is just a specific label for an unpredictable outcome or a feeling that comes in the process of transitioning. So instead of labeling it as, “I am inspired by heartbreak” now I’ll look at it as, “There’s an opportunity in every transition in life.” That’s my developed way of processing it.
The most interesting things happen in transition and it’s no wonder why creatives identify and find so much success in transitioning, because there is so much pure potential in going from A-to-B or A-to-Z, whatever the destination and beginning point is. There are infinite possibilities in that space, and it allows you to shed who you are or who you think you are or who you envision yourself as, and you can become literally anything that your emotion will lead you to be.
So, to answer the question, I don’t think that. Yes, I do believe that heartbreak inspired me. But now, in a more developed space, I’m realizing that transitions, the unknown, is the place where I thrive as an artist.
“God made us uniquely and if we tell the truth, as an audience or as a community…. if we learn how to really accept and embrace each other’s differences on this planet…we would have the most vibrant planet. I don’t even know how I’m going to end that, but it would be a much better life if we learned to just embrace our difference in taste, our difference in choice.”
On fashion. Developing taste, personal style, status symbols, fashion as a tool for self-exploration, fashion to navigate personal transformation.
LE FOOL: “Taste is a choice beyond circumstance.” — January 18, 2023. This has to be one of my favorite quotes of all time from your posts. It makes me laugh because it reminds me of the times I would gravitate towards the most expensive item in the store, without looking at the price tag (lol). But it’s more than that, I imagine. It’s about letting our aesthetic ambitions roam, free from what we “should” like. What were you thinking of when you wrote this back in January 2023?
MADE: It’s so cool to hear that you actually, that anybody actually, is keeping up with the specifics of anything I’m putting out there — that actually encourages me. I would put that on the list of things in the prior question of things that help an artist: Being around people who understand, appreciate, and acknowledge what you’re doing. Wow, I appreciate that.
To be honest, I don’t remember what I was exactly thinking then, but I'll tell you what it brings out in me today. It’s one of those things where no matter where you’re at in life — where you’re at financially, wherever you’re at on the social totem pole — you will always have one thing that you can control and one thing that people wished that they could change about you, which would in turn break you, and that’s your choice.
That’s your taste. That’s your preference.
Sometimes you have the ability and the resources to get exactly what your taste is, right? Most times in life, no matter how much you have, you won’t be able to acquire what your taste desires, but this is the great thing about it because that’s what forces you to be creative. That’s what forces you to be expressive.
Let’s talk about fashion. I have visions of many things that I can’t actually afford to upkeep, or I don’t think it’s responsible to indulge in because it’s just not very practical or it’s more self-serving, but I keep those things in my mind. And I promise you, I could go to a thrift store, a Target, a Walmart, and I could still achieve my taste. Now, there might not be as many options, but I never let anything sway my taste — I never let any trend, any circumstances, any jokes, or ridicule, anybody who has anything negative to say about it, sway it.
Taste is really a choice beyond the circumstance. That’s something that I really live by. I think that that’s what makes all of us unique. A lot of the time we try to figure out how to do something and in a more complex way but really it comes down to this: God made us uniquely and if we tell the truth, as an audience or as a community…. if we learn how to really accept and embrace each other’s differences on this planet…we would have the most vibrant planet. I don’t even know how I’m going to end that, but it would be a much better life if we learned to just embrace our difference in taste, our difference in choice. I think that’s one of the most important things that you could have as a human being.
The thing that I hate is that emblems and status sway people’s taste. Do we really like that car, or do we really like the brand of the car? Or do we think that just because it’s expensive, we want it? Do we really like Balenciaga, or do we really like the shirt we saw in Zara? You could be in a position to acquire both, but if you can trust your taste, it doesn’t matter what the stake or the circumstances are.
LE FOOL: You mentioned that working at Paul Smith was an important part of your journey as a creative person. I can always feel the difference between someone who has worked with clothes vs. someone who just looks at clothes or views them as props. There’s a different level of appreciation. I feel like you’re very much about that, and that level of care is shown in Kustom Godz. What is your relationship to clothes today? Has it evolved over time?
MADE: My relationship with clothes today is understanding that there’s a difference between style and fashion. A lot of what I did with Kustom Godz was the first time I ever did anything fashion, for real, for real. And working at Paul Smith helped to inform me on that because everything is about cut, fabric, working with actual tailoring.
When I was working with Kustom Godz, I got to use all those things I knew about cut and fabric but then I was introduced to this new thing called construction. I learned how much went into a product that was just a 2-D Adobe Illustrator design and how it becomes an actual garment that will fit somebody right or like the measurements that go beyond just inseam, or you know the shoulder, the arm length.
There are so many things about fashion that go beyond style.
I would say, I’m a balance of the two but I’m more so about style because style is just another form of expression. I feel like style is an outward way of showing who you are essentially.
There are so many things…even just wearing a certain color gives you a certain energy when people see you. It’s very much in the subconscious part of our reality but it’s no small thing. For example, I have on a navy-blue shirt today, very different for me and I look at myself in the mirror and I’m just like, “Bro, why would you put this on? Why would you wear this?”
Well, maybe I’m exploring today, and maybe I’m a little bit in-between. If somebody who really knows me saw me dressed today, they would know that I’m in a unique mood versus on certain days when I would wear something that’s more my character.
My favorite color to wear is yellow but I don’t wear it all the time. If I wear yellow though, you might get a different version of me, a different side of me which expresses how I’m very easygoing. I’m very much trying to bring smiles to the room.
I would say that’s my relationship or that’s the most important thing that I learned working at Paul Smith and working at Kustom Godz — the difference between fashion and style.
I really want people to start to see that for themselves. It’s not all about status. Most people pay a lot of money for clothes, they don’t even know why. Just because it’s made popular. The person who wore it first might know.
I’ll never forget, I was watching a Kanye interview, and he was like, “Man, I like wearing $650 Balenciaga Arena sneakers because they just, they just fit better. They just feel better to me, and I don’t know why.”
And if you remember the Balenciaga Arenas, they looked just like Nike Blazers. That was such an important point to me at a pivotal stage in my life, because that made me realize I could get the Balenciaga Arenas but there are other shoes that are just as stylish as those shoes, and work in a fashion that I need them to work in. I might not understand why I need to pay that much for some shoes. It’s not my lifestyle — yet, you know? At some point I might have so many Nike Blazers that I want something a little bit different. Sometimes I feel like that when I go to Zara or wherever, if I go to a common store, I feel I’ve had so much of this that I need something a little bit different. Or I need to go ahead and make something that really creates what I’m trying to achieve as far as the clothes that I’m wearing.
“The thing that I hate is that emblems and status sway people’s taste.”
LE FOOL: How did Kustom Godz come about?
MADE: Strangely enough, I was just working at Paul Smith downtown and it was a regular day. I remember I had my phone set up and was in the dressing room. When it was dead I would make content videos of me switching outfits, me putting together pieces that were in the store and post it for my clients to be able to see.
While I was in the middle of that Kevin Garnett and a client I had worked with previously walked into the door. He walks in and he’s like, “Hey, I’m Kevin.” I’m just like, “Yeah, I know…” I didn’t say that, of course, but I was definitely thinking it! Anyways, I introduced myself, let them take a look around and had a short conversation. He told me he was looking to start a clothing line, and he just came in there for some inspiration, so I wasn’t thinking I had just interviewed for a job. I thought, “Oh okay, I just met Kevin Garnett, that was cool. Pretty cool day, right?”
The guy that he came in with frequented our store and he worked with a couple different people that worked in the store. When I helped him out the last time, I must have made a good impression on him.
I really did focus on that when I was working at Paul Smith, the days did really drag and there were times when I really felt like I was not supposed to be there, or I felt like I had better things to do but I always just tried to approach it with the same attitude every day and to always give my best.
That’s something that I didn’t do in other places. I always tried to do it, but I never successfully stuck to it. But at Paul Smith because I left a good impression on that person, they ended up being somebody who designs and produces clothing and works with all kinds of different brands — really an expert in that world — and they so happened to have met Kevin Garnett, and Kevin Garnett was trying to make a clothing line, and because I made a good impression on my client, my client must have seen something in me to the point where he was just like, I need to like introduce you to this person.
At that point we didn’t know what it was going to be, and it didn’t just happen fast. The client would ask questions sporadically like, “We’re working on varsity jackets. Do you think you could show us what you would think about what a cool varsity jacket would look like?” And I would go, and I would be like, “Yeah!—Damn, how do I do this again?” — I had to reteach myself how to use Illustrator because I’ve been on so much of the music side of things. I’d pick myself up and just say “Alright, let me just see what I can do.” And I would just take it task by task, request by request and you know, eventually they ended up allowing me to be creative director for the entire brand and how it was going to be introduced to the public. I got to work on capsule one of Kustom Godz and that’s pretty much how that came about.
It was a really wild and random story but in turn, I went from working an ordinary day at Paul Smith to basically being recruited by Kevin Garnett which was super unreal. Even as I’m talking about it right now… “Dang, that really did happen?” It was a cool experience and I’m looking forward to whatever is next for me in store, but I could say that I designed a fashion collection and that’s pretty cool, that’s pretty special to me because I really do love clothing.
LE FOOL: Kustom Godz touches on some of the most important issues in fashion from size inclusivity to genre mixing, it’s a focused brand. In the era of unending hype, this feels like real value for an underserved market and unsurprisingly, very Kevin Garnett! Like a gap he saw in his wardrobe. Was this the focus from the beginning or a journey, over multiple conversations? What was your role in the inception of the brand?
MADE: The brand was the brainchild of Kevin Garnett because of an issue that he faced so much in his life being KG. Kevin Garnett was a power forward/center in the NBA, those guys are usually 6' 9," 6' 10," 7-feet.
Basketball players in general, don’t have to be the tallest to be able to be a tough fit because you might be 6'4" which could normally maybe fit an XXL. Let’s say, and your arms are just ridiculously long, or you know, your glute muscles are too big for certain pants even if they fit you on the inseam.
It’s something he came up with to solve an issue that he and his peers deal with in everyday life. That was the plan from the beginning. That’s the reason why he named it Kustom Godz and I basically came up with the idea of how the clothing or brand would look, what would be the brand story.
From working at Ralph Lauren, I learned about how important a brand’s story is, even more so than the clothing. The clothing being high quality and well-designed — those were all matters of integrity — but more than anything brands sell the idea of a lifestyle, and they pull from places that ultimately, they want it to embody. Ralph Lauren pulled from the country club and branded that and offered that to the public and created ads about it.
Because I was around for the birth of this brand, I was trying to do things that were sustainable over time so that we wouldn’t have to figure out, “Oh, what’s our first Kustom Godz ad going to look like?”
From the beginning we decided we’re going to pull from the theme of being regal and achieving the highest version of yourself, being a god in your own right and to incorporate certain details into the clothing, like having a silk lining and how that reflects having the interior of the clothing be as rich as the interior of a human being who has high self-esteem.
All of the things that I did were basically from a design and storytelling point of view. Creating the logo, assets, and things that would ultimately build our world but the actual concept of the clothing line for big & tall, that was all Kevin’s idea, and I just built the bridge.
LE FOOL: There’s a moment in the clip with Stephen A. Smith on “KG: Certified” when he sees the “Contrack Suit” and notes how fashion forward it is. “You have to be courageous to wear this!” he says. I thought that was apt, and the suit is a highlight from the capsule that I love just as much as the ease of the “Versailles” hoodie and pants. I know it’s not fair to ask, but do you have a favorite? And how do you see the brand growing?
MADE: The “Contrak Suit” was probably one of my favorite pieces, I loved the “Versailles” as well. I also had a lot of favorites in the pieces that never made it to market.
Knowing how hard it is to produce fashion, I find it impressive that as a clothing line that is just starting out, we managed to put out a full capsule collection. When I look at all my favorite brands or brands like Fear of God or maybe even KITH, etc. They usually start off with one or two items and they push those. And introductory products will usually be a T-shirt. Fear of God made an extended T-shirt. It was his take on silhouette—Jerry Lorenzo’s take on silhouette. He noticed a void in the market, he went and made something that only he could make.
For Kustom Godz, we had our own factory. We could take off and make eight pieces for our first capsule and it was like real cut and sew stuff. It wasn’t like, oh here’s a T-shirt, here’s a hoodie. No, it was, here’s our vision on what men’s suiting can look like as a hybrid of athleisure and that’s the “Contrak Suit.” We named it that because it was half tracksuit and half actual suit and we envisioned it being something that the mogul would wear or somebody who might sign a new contract, that they might wear to their signing or might hop on a private jet to that.
I’m particularly proud of the level of detail and fabrication on all of our items. The “Contrak Suit” was probably one of my favorites from the collection, but I see so much more potential. It’s tough to answer that question.
As a perfectionist, I see more of the flaws and the way forward, what I could’ve improved on. I would’ve loved to have spent more time on the small details. More fittings. I still have it in me to do four, five, six different iterations of the same “Versailles Hoodie.” I’m happy that my designs made it from a creative level but from a technical level, the idea deserves seven drafts or more. I’m not ready to be satisfied just yet but I’m always grateful.
LE FOOL: What do you do to relax? Do you have a hobby outside of your creative work?
MADE: I trade off hobbies. At one point it was basketball. At one point it was roller skating. I remember during the time I made “By Myself,” my girlfriend and I would really bond over roller skating.
I was teaching her how to roller skate and I fell in love with roller skating myself — I didn’t know how much I love to be on wheels. That was super freeing to me.
I love to listen to music too but it’s hard to relax and listen to the music because I’m always thinking about how it’s happening, how they’re doing it. I study it. It goes from something that I’m relaxing and doing to something that I’m processing and trying to make work for myself.
I definitely like to watch sports: I like to watch basketball. I like to watch football.
I think my favorite thing to do though, if I’m going to be honest, is just have a conversation. Having a good conversation is my favorite thing to do. If we could really go deep, that's truly my favorite thing to do, have a conversation about something that I care about or something that the person cares about. I love that. There’s not a lot of things I like doing more than that.
I also like shopping for CD’s, shopping for old music tech or just nerdy stuff. I’m a nerd. I like to read books.
I would say that’s probably a good list. I really want to get into biking and cycling, that would be cool. I want to start playing tennis a little bit more.
To just relax, I like to take a long drive. Take a little staycation in L.A. There are so many places you can go within the state, it’s pretty dope. Sometimes I would get my car and drive two-three hours away and just kick it.
LE FOOL: I’ve badgered you enough with my questions, here’s the mic for any last remarks you have for our readers.
MADE: I would like to say thank you. This was cool to do. I hope I didn’t talk too much but you asked really good questions, and I appreciate you, for one, having me do this but also for, two, for actually tapping in with what I’m doing and seeing everything that I do in detail to the point where it can be referenced like this. There are so many things you brought up that I forgot about, or I took for granted so I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to see this!
We Speak to SUZEDEE, Gilder & Artist
October 11, 2023
Interviewed by Jee Young Park | Co-Founder
All works in this interview are protected under the artist’s Copyright. Images are for the purposes of this interview only and with permission from the artist. All images courtesy of SUZEDEE©.
Le Fool: On your website, you write: “I am not fancy. I serve no art god.” Can you elaborate on not serving an “art god” and how it affects your approach to creativity?
SUZEDEE: I think in this context I use the term “god” almost like a representation of systemic art institutions. I don’t have formal training or schooling. Where at one point I was extremely self-conscious about that, I’ve now found it to be extremely liberating. I let go of trying to create as a form of validation from the outside and instead focus on what makes me happy. They’re simple pieces, but they’re from the heart.
LE FOOL: If not an art god, do you drive your practice from a set of values or something else?
SUZEDEE: My work is purely driven by my own whimsy and curiosities. I’ve always struggled to find what my thematic commonality is. My brain is always going in 100 directions. I’m driven by emotion, whether my personal experience or what I’ve witnessed or heard secondhand. I think a lot about the universal feelings and experiences humans share, from the beginning of time. I value the human experience, the absurdity of it all, the finiteness, the connection…
LE FOOL: Do you apply this lens when you consume the work of others? If yes, how does it alter your perspective of their work?
SUZEDEE: I think so. I try to take in the work, form my thoughts on it, and then try to understand their perspective and message.
LE FOOL: Gilding is not the most accessible career, as far as I know. How did you get started?
SUZEDEE: God no lol. Well, at the time I was working retail but I knew I really loved art and I wanted a creative career. So I did what I could to expose myself to that environment. I took a fabrication class, I talked to everyone I met in a creative field, asked a bunch of questions. Just casting a wide net every chance I could. Eventually, I met someone who was a friend of my partner (at the time), and they were a gilder. They let me help out on a project they were doing. I think I worked for free the first couple of times. I just wanted the exposure. I had no idea what it was, I think I went home and tried to Google everything I could about the craft. Eventually, they introduced me to their boss, who eventually became my boss after an apprenticeship. It was wild. At that point, I was doing 60-hour work weeks between gilding and my retail job, and finally, I was like, “I gotta take this risk”. So I quit the retail job and went into gilding full time and did that for a couple of years.
Interviewed by Jee Young Park | Co-Founder
All works in this interview are protected under the artist’s Copyright. Images are for the purposes of this interview only and with permission from the artist. All images courtesy of SUZEDEE©.
SUZEDEE: I think in this context I use the term “god” almost like a representation of systemic art institutions. I don’t have formal training or schooling. Where at one point I was extremely self-conscious about that, I’ve now found it to be extremely liberating. I let go of trying to create as a form of validation from the outside and instead focus on what makes me happy. They’re simple pieces, but they’re from the heart.
LE FOOL: If not an art god, do you drive your practice from a set of values or something else?
SUZEDEE: My work is purely driven by my own whimsy and curiosities. I’ve always struggled to find what my thematic commonality is. My brain is always going in 100 directions. I’m driven by emotion, whether my personal experience or what I’ve witnessed or heard secondhand. I think a lot about the universal feelings and experiences humans share, from the beginning of time. I value the human experience, the absurdity of it all, the finiteness, the connection…
LE FOOL: Do you apply this lens when you consume the work of others? If yes, how does it alter your perspective of their work?
SUZEDEE: I think so. I try to take in the work, form my thoughts on it, and then try to understand their perspective and message.
LE FOOL: Gilding is not the most accessible career, as far as I know. How did you get started?
SUZEDEE: God no lol. Well, at the time I was working retail but I knew I really loved art and I wanted a creative career. So I did what I could to expose myself to that environment. I took a fabrication class, I talked to everyone I met in a creative field, asked a bunch of questions. Just casting a wide net every chance I could. Eventually, I met someone who was a friend of my partner (at the time), and they were a gilder. They let me help out on a project they were doing. I think I worked for free the first couple of times. I just wanted the exposure. I had no idea what it was, I think I went home and tried to Google everything I could about the craft. Eventually, they introduced me to their boss, who eventually became my boss after an apprenticeship. It was wild. At that point, I was doing 60-hour work weeks between gilding and my retail job, and finally, I was like, “I gotta take this risk”. So I quit the retail job and went into gilding full time and did that for a couple of years.
At that point, I was doing 60-hour work weeks between gilding and my retail job, and finally, I was like, “I gotta take this risk”.
LE FOOL: Based on your experience, what do you think are the common barriers to pursuing gilding? How did you address them in your work? What helped? What didn’t? What’s still not working?
SUZEDEE: It’s so niche. The materials are wildly expensive, so already that financially excludes people. Then just the know-how on technique is so specific, and there aren’t that many people who do this anymore. There are a lot of videos online of people slapping metal leaf with craft glue together and calling it gilding, but the actual proper way to do it is so complicated. Gilders have their own formulas and tricks and a lot of that is so closely guarded. So accessibility to information as well. I don’t think I would’ve ever known about this if I hadn’t stumbled into it.
I don’t think I’ve directly addressed any of that in my work. It’s challenging because unless someone knows what gilding is, it’s really hard to explain exactly how my work is made and what goes into it even though the imagery is simple.
LE FOOL: You describe the autobiographical piece, I Know Where I Came From, as a “love letter to your family”. What was it like to create a piece that is so clearly driven by a core personal narrative from inception to completion? Was it emotional? Clarifying? A burden lifted? Bonding?
SUZEDEE: It’s funny because I think that was the first piece I did, ever. It was a gift to my sister. Technically it’s really crude and simple but it just means a lot. The idea came to me out of nowhere… you know when you’re doing something mundane and you just think of something and go “hmm”. It was like that. I don’t know if I’m just overly sentimental about these things but I feel like a part of my soul goes into pieces like that. It’s exciting to make work under those pretenses, and I would definitely say it’s almost a love language for me.
It’s kind of ironic too. Who would’ve thought in that dramatic moment of escape my family endured, that someday I’d have the privilege to commemorate it with… gold? Gold. Wild. My story isn’t special though and isn’t something that can’t be related to literally millions of kids of immigrants/refugees/first generation who live under the umbrella of their parents’ sacrifices.
“I KNOW WHERE I CAME FROM”
So, I’d say there was excitement, a sense of pride, attached to it.
LE FOOL: How do you see your work fitting into the folk art tradition?
SUZEDEE: Hmm. I see it as an extension of my personal narrative. I feel like fine art is very institutional, very public… it fits within very specific parameters. It has rules. That’s not my work. I’m not formally trained or anything. I create from a place of feeling, first and foremost. I’m just telling a story. My story.
When most people think of gilding, they think of Versailles, ancient Egyptian artifacts, a decorative, very baroque, opulent style in gold leaf. How has your exploration of gilding challenged these notions or affirmed them?
It’s a little bit of a juxtaposition, isn’t it? It seems like it was mostly used for royalty or a specific class and here I am making these little storytelling pieces from a background that would definitely not even come close to that level of privilege and prestige. I don’t think when I started gilding I had the foresight to think about whether I was challenging or affirming anything. I don’t know. I think you stumped me lol.
“A TREET AT NIGHT”
SUZEDEE: It’s so niche. The materials are wildly expensive, so already that financially excludes people. Then just the know-how on technique is so specific, and there aren’t that many people who do this anymore. There are a lot of videos online of people slapping metal leaf with craft glue together and calling it gilding, but the actual proper way to do it is so complicated. Gilders have their own formulas and tricks and a lot of that is so closely guarded. So accessibility to information as well. I don’t think I would’ve ever known about this if I hadn’t stumbled into it.
I don’t think I’ve directly addressed any of that in my work. It’s challenging because unless someone knows what gilding is, it’s really hard to explain exactly how my work is made and what goes into it even though the imagery is simple.
LE FOOL: You describe the autobiographical piece, I Know Where I Came From, as a “love letter to your family”. What was it like to create a piece that is so clearly driven by a core personal narrative from inception to completion? Was it emotional? Clarifying? A burden lifted? Bonding?
SUZEDEE: It’s funny because I think that was the first piece I did, ever. It was a gift to my sister. Technically it’s really crude and simple but it just means a lot. The idea came to me out of nowhere… you know when you’re doing something mundane and you just think of something and go “hmm”. It was like that. I don’t know if I’m just overly sentimental about these things but I feel like a part of my soul goes into pieces like that. It’s exciting to make work under those pretenses, and I would definitely say it’s almost a love language for me.
It’s kind of ironic too. Who would’ve thought in that dramatic moment of escape my family endured, that someday I’d have the privilege to commemorate it with… gold? Gold. Wild. My story isn’t special though and isn’t something that can’t be related to literally millions of kids of immigrants/refugees/first generation who live under the umbrella of their parents’ sacrifices.
So, I’d say there was excitement, a sense of pride, attached to it.
LE FOOL: How do you see your work fitting into the folk art tradition?
SUZEDEE: Hmm. I see it as an extension of my personal narrative. I feel like fine art is very institutional, very public… it fits within very specific parameters. It has rules. That’s not my work. I’m not formally trained or anything. I create from a place of feeling, first and foremost. I’m just telling a story. My story.
When most people think of gilding, they think of Versailles, ancient Egyptian artifacts, a decorative, very baroque, opulent style in gold leaf. How has your exploration of gilding challenged these notions or affirmed them?
It’s a little bit of a juxtaposition, isn’t it? It seems like it was mostly used for royalty or a specific class and here I am making these little storytelling pieces from a background that would definitely not even come close to that level of privilege and prestige. I don’t think when I started gilding I had the foresight to think about whether I was challenging or affirming anything. I don’t know. I think you stumped me lol.
I feel like fine art is very institutional, very public… it fits within very specific parameters. It has rules. That’s not my work. I’m not formally trained or anything. I create from a place of feeling, first and foremost. I’m just telling a story. My story.
Le FOOL: Confession, I was a little stumped at this point so I did a quick Google search, and a generic list of “10 artist questions you must be able to answer” came up. Most of them were very stale but I did like this one, “How do you balance your personal life and your practice?” Most people who aren’t creators perceive artists as indulgent and a little oblivious to happenings outside their scope of interest, but I believe it’s something artists think about a lot or, at least, are confronted with regularly. Does your experience differ? Did your social circle support you as you got started? What’s it like for you?
SUZEDEE: How do I explain to someone that the need to create is as urgent as the will to take the next breath? It was split. I got a lot of curiosity and interest and support and I also got, “Art jobs don’t pay, you’re gonna starve, etc”. I realized that the people who belittle the dreams of others are just a slave to their own stagnancy and frustrations.
It definitely helped to find artist friends. In general, it feels good to find support that validates the highs and lows, of anything. Community is so important. Now, I don’t bother with anyone who is anti-creative, to be honest. And that doesn’t mean people who are non-artists, or non-creative. I’m talking about people who almost have a hostility towards creativity and the arts and artists.
LE FOOL: “Downtown Manhattan” brings back a lot of memories. You hit your ten-year anniversary as a NYC resident back in June — not an easy feat! In what ways has living there matured you creatively?
SUZEDEE: Thanks! It’s been a wild ride. I think exposure to so many different things and people and ideas that I never even could have dreamed existed (like gilding!). Every day is a learning experience. I think the maturity in my creativity is an offset from the personal growth I’ve had here. More kindness to self, asking questions, trying to understand myself as a person… and that curiosity and kindness to explore new things (whether or not they will be successful) translates into my work as well.
LE FOOL: What’s your favorite thing to do in the city?
SUZEDEE: Honestly… walking. Get a pretty day or night with some great weather, a solid playlist, or even walking with someone with some good conversation… it’s the best. Just all the sights and seeing this space live and breathe and exist and just be in the middle of it all.
LE FOOL: What would you say is the biggest change you’ve noticed since you moved there?
SUZEDEE: Creatively? Understanding there are different ways to express one’s craft. There’s no set path, you have to find your own way somehow. Personally? Self-sufficiency and self-advocacy. I think about things I let slide when I first moved here and I don’t recognize that person anymore. With the city? Just an evolving landscape.
LE FOOL: In your digital life, are there certain activities you purposely opt out of, considering how they may affect your ability to work creatively? For example, in regard to your mental health or physical health such as your eyesight and mobility in your hands?
SUZEDEE: Are you referring to social media usage? I only have one public account, my Instagram. It’s cool as a tool to see and support other artists. I won’t say that I haven’t had an artist spiral moment where Every One Online is so beautiful and talented and perfect. So I guess moderation is key. As far as physicality, my day job keeps me moving around a lot and keeps me mentally stimulated as well just with the sheer amount of people I encounter daily.
LE FOOL: Lastly, please tell me about your bike! Was it easy to learn how to ride? What’s the upkeep?
SUZEDEE: It’s a 1980 Kawasaki KZ440 LTD and it’s a pain in my ass hahaha. I took the MSF class so that helped but after that, I was on my own. I dropped it a couple of times in the beginning and wiped out once on some gravel. Learning to ride wasn’t so hard as much as finding a place in an urban environment to practice! As far as upkeep, I’m still troubleshooting it because there’s something off in the carburetor so if it’s not revving super high it’s stalling out… it’s a whole thing, I’ll spare you. I love it though, and I have enjoyed the tactical aspect of wrenching on it and trying to solve its endless riddles (with lots and lots of help from my friend Frank who has saved my ass on more than one occasion with it). No regrets, it’s my first bike so of course I’m enamored. I wouldn’t mind a second one though … :)
For inquiries:
suzedee@thefolkgilder.com
www.thefolkgilder.com